runner leaving early LL

[1dumbquestion]

Hey, 1dumb here again. Still getting used to LL and the runner not being able to leave until the ball reaches the batter. I'm very familier with appeals of leaving early on a caught fly ball or missed bag. but in LL is the appeal the same for a runner leaving early... I mean to say must the D properly appeal or is the ump supposed to point it out and place the runner? did my rambling make any sense? Thanks, 1

[Umpire in Chief]

I'm far from well versed at LL rules and mechanics. I was reminded of this when I had a Minors game last week.

Some leagues use the little red hanky, which I think is Hokie. Also if I recall the penalty is next to nothing, If he's thrown out he's still out, and if he's not thrown out and is caught then he just goes back, so if I were a coach I'd be teaching my kids to leave early all the time.

Don't take my above statements on the rules as the gospel lets let some others who are more knowledgeable chime in.

[willv28]

No, there's no appeal. The play is still live and the runner is still liable to be put out. Some people use the red hankie, but we don't. I think it adds to the impact of the call to suddenly call it after play is over.

But the way it works is you see any runner on base early leave you call it after the play has concluded. One runner leaving early effects all runners, they're all penalized. So when the play concludes you call TIME. "Got R1 leaving early." All runners go back to their originally occupied bags (if possible). That's where it gets tricky is realizing where runners go back to.

Example, say you have R1, he leaves early and the batter hits a 2B. R1 scores. You call TIME and say "Have R1 leaving early." *point to him/her* and say "You, 3B". You kinda gotta factor in what happened. Like in this example had the BR been thrown out, he would've gone back to first.

I you haven't already make sure you have copies of the 2009 LL rule book and "The Umpire In Little League" and "The Right Call" is helpful too. Though The Umpire in LL book is cheesy it does go over several example of what to do when runners leave early.

[1dumbquestion]

thanks Will, I do have those three books. I'm pretty confident on what to do with the runners if it happens just wasn't sure if I was to point it out or if the D had to bring it up like a normal missed base appeal. sounds like the ump can/should call it and not wait for an appeal. thanks, 1

[Dragon29]

1dumb,

willv28 has it right but I want to emphasize something because of the way you worded your last post. ("Sounds like . .. )

There's no grey area here at all. You never wait for an appeal. The only time you don't call it is when the fact that he left early has no effect on any other aspect of the play.

An example of that would be: R1 leaves early, BR hits an infield single (happens in the Minors all the time!) and R1 has advanced only to 2B - No reason to call it; that's where you'd put him anyway. Now, on the same play, if R1 had made it to 3B, you'd call 'Time' at the end of the play, announce he left early and send him back to 2B.

Also, don't buy into managers trying to get you to let other runners off the hook when only one runner left early - they try that all the time. Good example of that is: R1 & R3; R1 leaves early; BR hits a single - R1 has advanced to 3B and R3 scored. Put the original 'R1' back on 2B; remove the run and put R3 back on 3B. You won't be popular, but you'll be right.

As far as the 'red hankie' is concerned - I have never used one. The reason for this is that, much of the time when a runner leaves early, it makes no difference (Best example of that is a runner who takes off early on a pitch not hit into play and immediately returns to their base) Well, if I throw the flag whenever that happens, I'm providing information to the offense that their runner is in violation of the rule, even though it had no affect on the outcome. Recently, I was discussing this with another umpire at a clinic and his rationale for using the flag is that, if the offense sees you're aware of it and looking for it, it could (he believes it does) reduce the number of occurrences. No fault in his logic there. (but, I still don't use one)

[1dumbquestion]

thanks Dragon, my "seems like" does leave it open for interpretation but I understand an appeal is never required (for leaving early). I do seem to remember reading one of the sitches in the "make the right call" book, when you have an R1,R2,R3 and the batter reaches on an E where a runner left early and now he is not on base, not an out, and his run doesn't count... he just disappears, took me a bit to accept the outcome but I guess that's LL. thanks again for your help guys, 1 dumb

[mstaylor]

thanks Dragon, my "seems like" does leave it open for interpretation but I understand an appeal is never required (for leaving early). I do seem to remember reading one of the sitches in the "make the right call" book, when you have an R1,R2,R3 and the batter reaches on an E where a runner left early and now he is not on base, not an out, and his run doesn't count... he just disappears, took me a bit to accept the outcome but I guess that's LL. thanks again for your help guys, 1 dumb

It's what we like to call the poof rule. Bases loaded and an infield hit, R3 is not called out but the run doesn't score either, poof, no more runner. Same play but an outfield hit, the run scores.

[Mr Umpire]

It's what we like to call the poof rule. Bases loaded and an infield hit, R3 is not called out but the run doesn't score either, poof, no more runner. Same play but an outfield hit, the run scores.

That is a crazy rule. I am glad I don't do LL. I can't imagine how a coach would act after that happens. That is one of those cases, I would think twice before calling it. I can only imagine the confusion a call like that would make. :HS

[willv28]

thanks Dragon, my "seems like" does leave it open for interpretation but I understand an appeal is never required (for leaving early). I do seem to remember reading one of the sitches in the "make the right call" book, when you have an R1,R2,R3 and the batter reaches on an E where a runner left early and now he is not on base, not an out, and his run doesn't count... he just disappears, took me a bit to accept the outcome but I guess that's LL. thanks again for your help guys, 1 dumb

I think you got it. Just remember appeal has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's a judgment call, it's your call alone to make. No coach can come out and ask you to check with another umpire. Well they could try but I would just send them back.

Also if you do any softball, the runner is out if they leave early.

[someoneinca]

thanks Dragon, my "seems like" does leave it open for interpretation but I understand an appeal is never required (for leaving early). I do seem to remember reading one of the sitches in the "make the right call" book, when you have an R1,R2,R3 and the batter reaches on an E where a runner left early and now he is not on base, not an out, and his run doesn't count... he just disappears, took me a bit to accept the outcome but I guess that's LL. thanks again for your help guys, 1 dumb

Almost correct. He does not have to reach on an error. He just has to reach on a batted ball that stays within the infield. If he hits the ball and it stays within the infield, R3 "poofs". Also, if the batter hits a routine fly ball to F7 and he drops it, the BR cannot advance past first (because it was an error), but R3 gets to score, even though the batter reached base on an error. This is because the batted ball left the infield.

[HokieUmp]

Some leagues use the little red hanky, which I think is Hokie.

Settle down ....

In this context, the spelling is h-o-k-e-y.

[Dragon29]

That is a crazy rule. I am glad I don't do LL. I can't imagine how a coach would act after that happens. That is one of those cases, I would think twice before calling it. I can only imagine the confusion a call like that would make.

Crazy or not (you won't get a big argument from me on that) it's not that big a deal. In more than 10 years of calling LL, I've made that call only twice. I don't know about you, but I don't make, or not make calls based upon how I think a manager may react. It is what it is.

As for having to think twice about it - not at all, but it's not a call you make unless you're certain. Yes, the OM will question you but it causes little or no confusion - they all know the rule, or learn it right there and then.

I know it sounds freaky, but it comes up so rarely it's basically a non-issue.

[Mr Umpire]

Crazy or not (you won't get a big argument from me on that) it's not that big a deal. In more than 10 years of calling LL, I've made that call only twice. I don't know about you, but I don't make, or not make calls based upon how I think a manager may react. It is what it is.

As for having to think twice about it - not at all, but it's not a call you make unless you're certain. Yes, the OM will question you but it causes little or no confusion - they all know the rule, or learn it right there and then.

I know it sounds freaky, but it comes up so rarely it's basically a non-issue.

My thinking twice about it has nothing to do with the coach. It has everything to do with going against baseball. To me, if this is going to be something an umpire is going to have to enforce, then the play should just be ruled dead. But, that is not for me to decide. I will call it as the rule is written(plus some common sense since I am not a "rulebook lawyer") but it will have to be really obvious.

And, it is still crazy. :tantrum:

[dawg-man]

In my nine years of umpiring LL I have thrown my red rag twice and both times it was really obvious. I watch the runners but unless he is getting an unfair advantage I leave it in my pocket. This rule like many others need sto be handled with a little common sense.

[mstaylor]

I call when I see it. I had a kid that was leaving early every pitch but always returned. It wasn't until he was on third and stole home that it was actually an enforcable call. Of course, this was Major's Allstars, thought his coach/Dad was going to stroke out.

[someoneinca]

I call when I see it.

Same here. I've dropped it so many times in 7 years that I can't count.

[Dragon29]

In my nine years of umpiring LL I have thrown my red rag twice and both times it was really obvious. I watch the runners but unless he is getting an unfair advantage I leave it in my pocket. This rule like many others need sto be handled with a little common sense.

OK - While I'm not a huge fan of this rule, I do understand why it exists and so call it as written.

The argument you've used here is exactly the argument I've gotten from several coaches. "You're only supposed to call that if he gains an unfair advantage!"

I don't buy that at all; it's not what the rule says. Leaving base early is against the rules; therefore, it is unfair. It's also an advantage, so by definition, leaving base early is an unfair advantage whenever it occurs.

That's not to say you call it by inches; that would be insane. I'm looking at anything a step or more early; if I'm certain a runner left early by that margin or more, I'm calling it. In my view, the base paths are so short and these kids are so fast, that that one step can make a big difference.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[Umpire in Chief]

Settle down ....

In this context, the spelling is h-o-k-e-y.

Ooops sorry.

[dawg-man]

I am certainly ok with the rule and call it when I see it but I am not going to pull the flag out 20 times a game if they are leaving by a gnats hair. For you who are not in the south that is a very small area. I will tell a coach if his players are getting off early to make sure they stay on until its legal. They know we carry the " red rag " so they are good about talking to the kids. I did not mean it to sound like I did not enforce the rule and just let the kids run wild. I do though appreciate all the advice that I get here and will use it.

[willv28]

Wow, I called it about 5 times last year alone. It's usually a stressed point so they usually wait until the ball actually reaches the catcher before they go. But there's often that one kid who thinks they can get away with it, I notice them leave early on one pitch, but go back, then they do it again and I'm then watching them like a hawk.

Calling it has never caused a problem. It can be a difficult thing to judge because you're either in B or C position so you pretty much have to be sure.

[willv28]

I am certainly ok with the rule and call it when I see it but I am not going to pull the flag out 20 times a game if they are leaving by a gnats hair. For you who are not in the south that is a very small area. I will tell a coach if his players are getting off early to make sure they stay on until its legal. They know we carry the " red rag " so they are good about talking to the kids. I did not mean it to sound like I did not enforce the rule and just let the kids run wild. I do though appreciate all the advice that I get here and will use it.

We don't carry the red flag, we feel not only is it cheesy, but it take up time and tips the hand as to what's happening. You don't drop a flag on non-immediate OBS calls, why do it here? Plus, I like seeing the surprised look when I catch them. Like they say, "Make 'em cry."

[catoblue]

thanks Will, I do have those three books. I'm pretty confident on what to do with the runners if it happens just wasn't sure if I was to point it out or if the D had to bring it up like a normal missed base appeal. sounds like the ump can/should call it and not wait for an appeal. thanks, 1

Here's a link to a book known as Little League RIM - while it is out of date with regard to the last two years of monkeying around with pitching urles, it is probably the best resource for a LL ump.

http://www.fcll.org/Umpires/2008_Ump...les_Manual.pdf

**EDIT** I just tried the link and it's no longer there.

Try this one: http://www.fcll.org/2008_Umpire_School_Rules_Manual.pdf

Edited April 22, 2009 by catoblue

[someoneinca]

Here is the Rules Instruction Manual (RIM) for 2009. It has the exact text from the Green Book and The Right Call and it also adds in comments that help apply the rules.

http://maineumpireclinic.com/Documents/Umpire%20School%20Rules%20Instruction%20Manual.pdf

[willv28]

thanks Dragon, my "seems like" does leave it open for interpretation but I understand an appeal is never required (for leaving early). I do seem to remember reading one of the sitches in the "make the right call" book, when you have an R1,R2,R3 and the batter reaches on an E where a runner left early and now he is not on base, not an out, and his run doesn't count... he just disappears, took me a bit to accept the outcome but I guess that's LL. thanks again for your help guys, 1 dumb

You're referring to 7.13©. You have it right, only it's any ball that doesn't leave the infield via bunt or hit and the BR reaches 1B safely. The runners only are allowed to advance one base.

Edited April 23, 2009 by willv28

[1dumbquestion]

thanks all, the posts have been most helpfull. also the RIM book is great I read it last night and it did clear up a few things... but... a sitch thats seems to come up often and each coach has a different view on it is with R3 jumping off after the ball reaches F2 on a pitch and not going right back to his base when F1 toes the rubber. last night I had R3 steal home when F1 ran back to the rubber trying to "stop" him. the coaches were under the impression that once F1 got to the rubber the runner had to retreat. reading comment #2 in the RIM under 7.13 it seems that the runner is under no obligation to return to 3rd and that actually he could take off from 3rd any time before the pitcher begins his pitch. what do you LL experts think? thanks, 1