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Jimurray

Little League walk off walk or HBP

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Given the situation from this thread with two outs would you use the OBR comment which is lacking in the LLGB or RIM? And would you infer to ask the batter-runner to advance to 1B?

 

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The following case play is the closest to your scenario I could find. From the 2018 Make The Right Call:  The Casebook Of Little League Baseball:

Rule 4.09(b) Situation:  Tie game in the bottom of the sixth-inning, two outs. Batter receives ball four and all runners begin to advance. The runner from third base touches home plate. The batter rushes to join in the endgame celebration without having touched first base. The batter then enters the dugout with the rest of his/her team.

RULING:  Umpire will call the batter out for abandoning his/her effort to advance. In this instance, the third out is a result of the batter being called out before touching first base, therefore it is a force out. No run scores and the game continues with the score tied. (NOTE:  The player must enter dead ball territory before he/she can be called for abandonment.)

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I had an interesting twist on this in a local LL minors game.  There is a local rule of a 5-run limit for any inning. A team had 1 out, bases loaded and 4 runs in. I called a walk and one of the base coaches said "5 runs, let's go!" as the runner from third came in to touch home and the defense all headed to the dugout. However,  the BR never touched first and entered the dugout.  I called him out and was telling the scorekeeper to credit only 4 runs that half-inning.

The offense's coach once he realized what I was saying said "but that's only two outs, we're still up to bat right?" . Not having seen if the other two runners touched (I was the only ump this night) I thought that was reasonable, put the runners back with two outs and played on.

Did I make the right call?

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5 hours ago, agdz59 said:

I had an interesting twist on this in a local LL minors game.  There is a local rule of a 5-run limit for any inning. A team had 1 out, bases loaded and 4 runs in. I called a walk and one of the base coaches said "5 runs, let's go!" as the runner from third came in to touch home and the defense all headed to the dugout. However,  the BR never touched first and entered the dugout.  I called him out and was telling the scorekeeper to credit only 4 runs that half-inning.

The offense's coach once he realized what I was saying said "but that's only two outs, we're still up to bat right?" . Not having seen if the other two runners touched (I was the only ump this night) I thought that was reasonable, put the runners back with two outs and played on.

Once R3 scored the 5th run, why did you put the other two runners back on?  BR is out but you still have your 5 run limit to end the half-inning.

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WPLL - 4.09 and RIM 4.09 #2  . . . I think this would apply to the 5 run rule also.

 

 

 

 

 

4.09.jpg

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17 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

The following case play is the closest to your scenario I could find. From the 2018 Make The Right Call:  The Casebook Of Little League Baseball:

Rule 4.09(b) Situation:  Tie game in the bottom of the sixth-inning, two outs. Batter receives ball four and all runners begin to advance. The runner from third base touches home plate. The batter rushes to join in the endgame celebration without having touched first base. The batter then enters the dugout with the rest of his/her team.

RULING:  Umpire will call the batter out for abandoning his/her effort to advance. In this instance, the third out is a result of the batter being called out before touching first base, therefore it is a force out. No run scores and the game continues with the score tied. (NOTE:  The player must enter dead ball territory before he/she can be called for abandonment.)

This would be why I would use the OBR rule and ask the batter to go touch 1B. Imagine standing there watching the dogpile until they break up and then waiting for the batter to enter the dugout and then continuing the game. 

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4.09 (b) is in ref to a "tie game" and that's why I didn't post it. I'm not gg2 tell any player what to do, not my job, and that could just create more problems coming from the other team's mgr.  / coaches

 . .  . my .02

 

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2 hours ago, SJA said:

4.09 (b) is in ref to a "tie game" and that's why I didn't post it. I'm not gg2 tell any player what to do, not my job, and that could just create more problems coming from the other team's mgr.  / coaches

 . .  . my .02

 

In OBR you would have to tell the player to advance in order for him to "refuse". 

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21 hours ago, Jimurray said:

This would be why I would use the OBR rule and ask the batter to go touch 1B. Imagine standing there watching the dogpile until they break up and then waiting for the batter to enter the dugout and then continuing the game. 

 

On 6/8/2019 at 10:09 PM, Senor Azul said:

The following case play is the closest to your scenario I could find. From the 2018 Make The Right Call:  The Casebook Of Little League Baseball:

Rule 4.09(b) Situation:  Tie game in the bottom of the sixth-inning, two outs. Batter receives ball four and all runners begin to advance. The runner from third base touches home plate. The batter rushes to join in the endgame celebration without having touched first base. The batter then enters the dugout with the rest of his/her team.

RULING:  Umpire will call the batter out for abandoning his/her effort to advance. In this instance, the third out is a result of the batter being called out before touching first base, therefore it is a force out. No run scores and the game continues with the score tied. (NOTE:  The player must enter dead ball territory before he/she can be called for abandonment.)

You can't abandon before acquiring 1B and the out at 1B is not a force. Do what jimurray says.

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19 hours ago, Jimurray said:

In OBR you would have to tell the player to advance in order for him to "refuse". 

Are you inferring "umpire asking" from "BR refusing"? If so, please provide a cite, rule or comment. I'm not sure one necessarily follows from the other, but if there is authority for this proposition, I'm open-minded. TIA.

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10 minutes ago, LRZ said:

Are you inferring "umpire asking" from "BR refusing"? If so, please provide a cite, rule or comment. I'm not sure one necessarily follows from the other. TIA.

I vaguely remember this being advised by Childress or Wendelstedt. But if you don't infer that what would you do?

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Between "inferring/coaching" (I agree with SJA) and either (1) inferring BR abandonment or (2) 8.01(c), I'd probably go with 8.01(c). Isn't this a "point not specifically covered in these rules"?

But if Senor Azul did not find any relevant MLB authority in his comprehensive Baseball Library of Congress, could there be anything? Not only must he have every rule book and manual going back to Abner Doubleday's era, but he knows how to search through them all!

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From the 2016 BRD (section 33, p. 39):

Play:  In the home half of the final inning of the conference championship game, the score is tied and the bases are loaded with two outs when B1 receives ball four. He hurries to first and R3 crosses the plate, but R1 and R2 immediately join the victory celebration. Ruling:  In FED, on appeal either R1 or R2 is out:  Both failed to touch the next base. Since it is a force out, the run is canceled and play continues into extra innings. In OBR, the game is over:  Home wins.

Note 41:  OBR does not provide a time frame for the advance:  Simply, you wait around until BR and R3 decide to touch the bases, when the game ends. Many umpires, myself included, would “remind” the runners to advance.

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1 hour ago, LRZ said:

Are you inferring "umpire asking" from "BR refusing"? If so, please provide a cite, rule or comment. I'm not sure one necessarily follows from the other, but if there is authority for this proposition, I'm open-minded. TIA.

Basic English. How can you refuse to do something you weren't asked to to? 

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27 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Basic English. How can you refuse to do something you weren't asked to to? 

Basic common sense. The rules themselves can carry an inferred duty or responsibility, possibly based on a rule entitlement. For example, in the OP, 5.05(b)(2): you're HBP and thereby entitled to first base. Why does a player need to be asked to do something to which he or she is entitled by a rule?

Thank you, Senor Azul, for the BRD note, but with all due respect to Childress, the more reasonable approach is "don't coach" and "8.01(c)." According to the Childress note, "many" umpires--but not all.

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29 minutes ago, LRZ said:

Basic common sense. The rules themselves can carry an inferred duty or responsibility, possibly based on a rule entitlement. For example, in the OP, 5.05(b)(2): you're HBP and thereby entitled to first base. Why does a player need to be asked to do something to which he or she is entitled by a rule?

Thank you, Senor Azul, for the BRD note, but with all due respect to Childress, the more reasonable approach is "don't coach" and "8.01(c)." According to the Childress note, "many" umpires--but not all.

I think you might have some LL loyalty and don't want to admit that waiting for a batter to enter the dugout and inferring that as refusal is not "more reasonable".  In fact it is not "abandonent" by rule either. 

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I have no LL loyalty; in fact, the two leagues I primarily work are both based on OBR. I agree that the BR refusing to advance to first is not abandonment, which is why I referenced 8.01(c). "The more reasonable approach," IMO.

On this board, we have numerous discussions where posters generally agree that players, coaches, teams have some responsibility to know the rule or situation. Here, we're discussing how to balance diverging ideas: I would place more weight on the "don't coach" side than on the "inferred asking," a judgment that is inherently subjective. As BU, I would not argue with my partner, as the PU, asking the player to advance, but I, if on the plate, would not.

Let's agree to disagree.

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On 6/9/2019 at 3:13 AM, Larry in TN said:

Once R3 scored the 5th run, why did you put the other two runners back on?  BR is out but you still have your 5 run limit to end the half-inning.

What SJA said.  I assume the BR has to touch first for the award to count.

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13 hours ago, agdz59 said:

What SJA said.  I assume the BR has to touch first for the award to count.

Maybe I'm misreading the post.  I'm reading it as only two outs, not three.

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21 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Basic English. How can you refuse to do something you weren't asked to to? 

If you do not submit your taxes you don't need someone from the IRS to phone you up and tell you to do them - the law requires it.  The "request" is inferred.  Your decision to not comply is a refusal, even without a specific and direct instruction.   This is true of any rule or law with which you fail to comply.  Failure to comply is a refusal to comply, even if the cops don't instruct you first, and you may not claim ignorance.

The rules require the batter to touch first - his failure to comply with the rules, even without explicit direction, is a refusal.

20 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I think you might have some LL loyalty and don't want to admit that waiting for a batter to enter the dugout and inferring that as refusal is not "more reasonable".  In fact it is not "abandonent" by rule either. 

Are there not case plays, interpretations, think tank summaries and SCOTUS rulings that a batter entering dead ball territory before reaching first is indeed abandonment...or, "desertion"...either way, the batter is out.

 

On 6/9/2019 at 1:22 PM, Jimurray said:

This would be why I would use the OBR rule and ask the batter to go touch 1B. Imagine standing there watching the dogpile until they break up and then waiting for the batter to enter the dugout and then continuing the game. 

Even more problematic if after the dogpile all the players then line up and shake hands before entering the dugout.   I don't think anyone in their right mind is calling the batter out after all that....I really hope not.

 

Treat it as a missed base.  If the defense has left fair territory, problem solved.  If you leave the field before an appeal is made, problem solved.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Larry in TN said:

Maybe I'm misreading the post.  I'm reading it as only two outs, not three.

 

16 hours ago, agdz59 said:

What SJA said.  I assume the BR has to touch first for the award to count.

In your specific situation you said there was only one out...why would BR have to touch first for the run to count?  If R3 touches home, it doesn't really matter if BR walked, only had three balls and advanced with nobody touching him...or hit into a ground ball out...the BR's out only makes two out...R3's touching home plate is legal in every scenario - it's a live play...the run counts.

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38 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

The rules require the batter to touch first - his failure to comply with the rules, even without explicit direction, is a refusal.

No -  the rules say the game isn't over until R3 touches home and B-R touches first. There is a potential penalty if the B-R doesn't. But given that if the B-R only becomes out 1 or 2 the run scores anyhow so the "requirement" becomes moot, therefore it is only a conditional requirement.

 And here is what refuse means. Try to convince me a B-R not going to 1B would meet the "not willing" part.

ref·use1
/rəˈfyo͞oz/
verb
 
  1. indicate or show that one is not willing to do something.
    "I refused to answer"
    • indicate that one is not willing to accept or grant (something offered or requested).

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I had a discussion on an NCAA facebook site regarding this. NCAA used to have the same rule as FED and required all runners to touch and an appeal if a runner did not advance. BTW the FED rule only requires the umpire to "not declare the game over" until all runners have advanced to the next base. It's only a caseplay that makes this an appeal play in FED.

But, back to NCAA, in 2017 while they copied some of the OBR verbiage they did not add the OBR Penalty verbiage and what the umpire should do if the batter did not advance. Most of the opinions on facebook were that an appeal was needed as opposed to my opinion that the umpire should require the batter to go to 1B. But the discussion ended with my last argument. The reason NCAA changed to the OBR rule was "simplifying administration of last half-inning winning runs". I didn't get any argument after I noted that reason and said that in OBR and NCAA the most simple way to administer that winning run was to tell the batter to go to 1B. 

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1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

No -  the rules say the game isn't over until R3 touches home and B-R touches first. There is a potential penalty if the B-R doesn't. But given that if the B-R only becomes out 1 or 2 the run scores anyhow so the "requirement" becomes moot, therefore it is only a conditional requirement.

 And here is what refuse means. Try to convince me a B-R not going to 1B would meet the "not willing" part.

ref·use1
/rəˈfyo͞oz/
verb
 
  1. indicate or show that one is not willing to do something.
    "I refused to answer"
    • indicate that one is not willing to accept or grant (something offered or requested).

I can play the semantics game all day long...

not willing = unwilling

unwilling = compelled, involuntary, forced and many others

unwilling = remiss

remiss = negligent, careless or slow in performing one's duty

I would argue the B/R is remiss in not advancing to first base.

And yes, I know you could come back and show something the exact opposite.

We'll agree to disagree.

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13 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I can play the semantics game all day long...

not willing = unwilling

unwilling = compelled, involuntary, forced and many others

unwilling = remiss

remiss = negligent, careless or slow in performing one's duty

I would argue the B/R is remiss in not advancing to first base.

And yes, I know you could come back and show something the exact opposite.

We'll agree to disagree.

OBR uses "fails" and "refuses" in their rules. In the other cases of the use of "refuses" in the rules it seems obvious that a request was made by the umpire and was "refused" by the offender. Why would the OBR rule writers not use "fail" as opposed to "refuse" in the winning run rule?

"(c) If a manager leaves the field, he shall designate a player or
coach as his substitute, and such substitute manager shall have
the duties, rights and responsibilities of the manager. If the
manager fails or refuses to designate his substitute before leaving,
the umpire-in-chief shall designate a team member as substitute
manager.
(3) If the batter refuses to take his position in the batter’s box
during his time at bat, the umpire shall call a strike on the
batter. The ball is dead, and no runners may advance.
After the penalty, the batter may take his proper position
and the regular ball and strike count shall continue
7.03 Forfeited Games
(a) A game may be forfeited to the opposing team when a team:
(1) Fails to appear upon the field, or being upon the field,
refuses to start play within five minutes after the....
(3) Refuses to continue play during a game unless the game
has been suspended or terminated by the umpire-inchief;
(4) Fails to resume play, after a suspension, within one
minute after the umpire-in-chief has called “Play;”

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