Little League Head First slide to first. Force Out?

[Guest Casey Sullivan]

Hi, here is a riddle... trying to find the answer.

• 2 outs.
• Kids on 2nd and 3rd. 
• Batter Strikes out, drop 3. He runs to first, with open base. 
• Runner at 3rd advances to home. He is safe and there well ahead of a play at first. 
• Batter/Runner going to first is there ahead of the throw. 
• However, batter/runner started to stumble and then slid head first into first. 

I realize sliding head first is illegal... and it would be hard to differentiate his stumble with intentional slide. So let's just say he should be out for the slide. 

Question is, does the run score?

If he was out because of the force, the run wouldn't score. If the throw made it to first before the runner... for sure he would be out and the run wouldn't count. 

But, in this case.... he wasn't out because of a play at first... he was out because of a face-first slide... would this still count as a force? 

And he was safe by 1 second plus... so wasn't a bang bang play (if that matters). 

My inclination was that he was out not for the force... so run scores. 

any takers on this one? 

[beerguy55]

The run doesn't score because the batter made the third out before reaching first base....he never made first safely  (btw - the play at first base is never a "force") - provided the stumble/head first slide happened before first base.  (then it would have to be some weird ruling about sliding headfirst into second base really really far away??)

[seattledad]

hmmm. So he it or before getting there... so no run. Got it. 

What if the runner scored, then the batter was out at first after the runner scored. Loose ball, runner from 3rd gets home... then catcher throws batter out at first intime. does runner score? 

[seattledad]

this is what another page says 

Example: Runner on third, two outs. Catcher drops the third strike, while he is picking it up and throwing to first, the runner from third crosses home plate. As long as the catcher throws out the runner at first, the run doesn't count. The force play at first is the same as if a ground ball was hit to another infielder. The run doesn't count.

 

 

[beerguy55]

13 minutes ago, seattledad said:

this is what another page says 

Example: Runner on third, two outs. Catcher drops the third strike, while he is picking it up and throwing to first, the runner from third crosses home plate. As long as the catcher throws out the runner at first, the run doesn't count. The force play at first is the same as if a ground ball was hit to another infielder. The run doesn't count.

 

 

If the batter makes the third out and never reaches first safely no runs can ever score - doesn't matter how long it takes or how many runners cross home plate before getting the batter out.  This also includes a very high fly ball that is caught for the third out well after the batter rounds first base.

The play at first base is never a force play - it just looks like one.

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, seattledad said:

this is what another page says 

Example: Runner on third, two outs. Catcher drops the third strike, while he is picking it up and throwing to first, the runner from third crosses home plate. As long as the catcher throws out the runner at first, the run doesn't count. The force play at first is the same as if a ground ball was hit to another infielder. The run doesn't count.

 

 

The batter being thrown out at 1B is not a force and is sloppy rule citing but everyone knows that the run does not score because the runner advanced to home base during a play in which the third out was made "(1) by the batter-runner before touching first base." and not "(by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because that runner failed to touch one of the bases (appeal play)". The quotes are from the LL rulebook 4.09(a) EXCEPTIONS.

[seattledad]

got it. thank you!

 

[ArchAngel72]

I'm hung up on this one.  The BR stumbled and fell forward into 1st base and its considered a slide?

 

whats the age group?  if this is 10-12   maybe  if this is 7-10 no way would I consider that a slide. Of course I did not see it, so its hard for me to understand.

7.08- Any runner is out when-

7.08 - 4. Little league (Major) and below only: the runner slides head first while advancing.

 

I never took this as a kid stumbling bumbling falling down. I took this as a purposeful slide.

 

 

[seattledad]

I dont know if he stumbled or slid intentionally. About 5 minutes after the play the mom and kid said he was tripping then just slid head first as opposed to actually tripping which he thought would eventually happen. it was a stubmle turned slide instead. 

its a 12yo. One of the top players in league. Plays for a top team in town too... where sliding head first is legal. Though ive never seen him or anyone else do this intentionally. 

In the moment he said he didnt know you couldnt go head first. After he said he tripped. Who knows. It looked like a nice slide to me... but i wasnt watching his every move because i was watching runner to home, catcher chasing ball and then throwing... and i looked over and he was sliding into first. So not sure if feet were tripped up or not. 

 

[ArchAngel72]

Ok based on what you said just there I would assume he slid head 1st

He's Out right there run does Not score

 

[Aging_Arbiter]

So "top players" never stumble? 

[Lou B]

If the Umpire judged the runner stumbled/fell head-first into first he's not out for a headfirst slide.  Pure judgement call by the umpire.  Of course, he could judge it as a headfirst slide.