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Mudder

2 Man - U1 with R3 or R2/R3

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In 2 man, as base ump, with 2 out I've always started in B with R3 or R2/R3 (likely play at 1b on infield ground ball), with less than 2 out I start in C under both scenarios, but I noticed the 2018 NCAA manual shows U1 in C under both scenarios, regardless of the outs.

Can you discuss the starting point of U1 in 2 man mechanics, with R2 or R2/R3  for Milb, NCAA , etc, and if # of outs changes it.

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Why is this in photography? Can we get a moderator to move this to the proper area?

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Why not be in D, and then cut inside a la U3 on batted balls? That should get U1 to the working area if needed for a call at 1st base (or at 2nd or 3rd base, since the plate umpire won't be rotating in those situations with any crew size anyway). This might lessen the learning curve to 3-man (D would already be a normal position, just generalize it to more situations, and it might provide better coverage on plays at 3rd base than the current mechanic of starting in C does.

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2 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

Why not be in D, and then cut inside a la U3 on batted balls? That should get U1 to the working area if needed for a call at 1st base (or at 2nd or 3rd base, since the plate umpire won't be rotating in those situations with any crew size anyway). This might lessen the learning curve to 3-man (D would already be a normal position, just generalize it to more situations, and it might provide better coverage on plays at 3rd base than the current mechanic of starting in C does.

the pickoff throw is already very unlikely to third anyways, and even with some hard steps towards the mound on a groundball, that's a long ways away from first base for a groundball

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What's the loss? C is already a long way away from 1st base, and the saying for 2-man is angle over distance, so I don't see any major downsides to starting in D with R2/R3 or R3 only. With R3 only, U1 in D is in an excellent position for the pickoff, and can cover the back end of the rundown, with HP taking the front end of the rundown. 

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On 5/17/2019 at 12:58 PM, Mudder said:

In 2 man,

Did you miss this, @ilyazhito? Mudder isn’t making for an easy read, since he’s using “U1” instead of “BU”.

On 5/17/2019 at 12:58 PM, Mudder said:

with 2 out I've always started in B with R3 or R2/R3 (likely play at 1b on infield ground ball), with less than 2 out I start in C under both scenarios, but I noticed the 2018 NCAA manual shows U1 BU in C under both scenarios, regardless of the outs.

From where did you, @Mudder pick up that you should go to B with 2 outs, R3 only? Likely, you got it from a Fed colleague or trainer, who himself picked it up from some loose-leaf manual or advisement or “clinic” that emphasized the need to get on the 1B side of the centerline (running from plate, through mound, to 2B) on a play at 1B, especially on 2 outs, because that’s where the most likely play is going to go. Yes, it’s important, but that doesn’t mean your IP should be at B. Doubly so, you cannot be at B with R2 in the 2-man System, even with 2-outs. Even with R2 and R3. What if a WP/PB occurs, and both runners advance, with F2 ignoring R3 scoring so as to throw to 3B?? What if there is a pickoff at 3B? Are you really in an optimum position for that call, in B?

Do you shift over to B with bases loaded and 2 outs? I hope not, and trust you don’t. But according to your proposed rationale, why is that any different?

No, the CCA has us in C for R2 only, R3 only, R2+R3, R1+R2, and R1+R2+R3, with two outs, because we, as BU’s are expected to get our ass across the centerline. Don’t be lazy, move your feet, get on the 1B side of the centerline, get (as) set (as possible), and make the call at 1B.

The problem is, Fed is a harbor for umpires of sloth and lazy behaviors. If not an outright harbor, then it tolerates that deficiency too much.

5 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

Why not be in D, and then cut inside a la U3 on batted balls? That should get U1 to the working area if needed for a call at 1st base 

In 2-man? Are you sure you know what you’re talking about? I don’t see any sarcasm tags around, and you’re trying to rationalize it, but it just doesn’t hold any water.

In 2-man, with any runner on any base, the BU is inside (at either B or C), period. While inside, the BU has fly ball responsibility from F7 to F9, only giving up that responsibility should F7 or F9 be headed towards their respective foul lines and it becomes Fair/Foul and Catch/No-catch. Also, with a runner in scoring position (R2, R3, or R2+R3), BU has responsibility to the bases, while PU has first-and-foremost responsibility to the plate. You’re going to honestly tell me that, with R3, and the BU in D (like you’re saying), if the ball is a ground ball to the infield, that the BU is going to race in from D and get all the way across the centerline to get near 1B to make a call there??? Worse, on a routine liner or uncatchable fly ball to the outfield, you’re going to expect the PU to vacate the Plate to watch BR’s touch of 1B?? That’s what’s implied by your proposition. Even worse, we have a liner or fly ball to the left field foul line. Is not the BU, who you placed in D, supposed to go out on that? And doesn’t that leave everything to PU??? 

How about on fly balls to the outfield with R3 only? Does that now revert back to PU’s?

@ilyazhito, I really don’t think you thought this through. Even if you were confused between Mudder’s request on 2-man versus 3-man, you’re still making a grave error...

2 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

so I don't see any major downsides to starting in D with R2/R3 or R3 only.

With R2+R3??? We must have an Umpire inside, at either C (highly preferred) or B (where U1 would be in 3-man, less than 2 outs, in this same situation) so as to administer 2B... where a Runner is... or did you forget what R2 means?

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6 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

the saying for 2-man is angle over distance 

The saying should be "angle, then distance". Once you've gotten the right angle, you work on lessening the distance. Experienced umpires can do both at the same time.

The benefit of B and C is that you can make the "angle" part easier, then concentrate on the "distance" part. Putting your base umpire on the third base line with R3 or R2/R3 eliminates everything that base umpire is designed to do while in C to add a better angle on a pick-off to 3B that you'll see once a year?

Let's add that the angle for a pick-off while in C is already really good and you only have to adjust a step or two - at most - to get the optimal angle.

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On 5/17/2019 at 12:58 PM, Mudder said:

In 2 man, as base ump, with 2 out I've always started in B with R3 or R2/R3 (likely play at 1b on infield ground ball), with less than 2 out I start in C under both scenarios, but I noticed the 2018 NCAA manual shows U1 in C under both scenarios, regardless of the outs.

Can you discuss the starting point of U1 in 2 man mechanics, with R2 or R2/R3  for Milb, NCAA , etc, and if # of outs changes it.

Several different philosophies on this:

1) B when a steal of second is possible; otherwise C

2) C when a steal of third is possible; otherwise B

3) C whenever there's an R2 or an R3

 

1 is best (imo) if the umpires can move -- so it's the CCA mechanic

2 is best if you cna't trust the umpires to move, so you see it in some FED and lower level mechanics

3 is best at lower levels because it's easier to teach and because there are so many more pickoffs at second or third and the R1-R3 "steal" is almost a given with no play *or* a subsequent play on R3.

 

Some do switch from 1 to 2 with two outs -- it's a similar philosophy to the 3-man positioning changing with two outs

 

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R3, I'm always going to stay in shallow C, regardless of outs.

However, R2/R3 and 2 outs only, I will slip back into a deep B if it's a higher level of competition.  My reasoning behind this is (1) IMOP, better teams are exponentially more likely to back pick at second base, not third, and (2) I can slide inside or outside on a routine ground ball in a much better position.  In a deep B, I'm only a drop step or two back and I'm getting a really good look on that runner coming back into second base.  I do sacrifice a bit of the distance on R3, but can take a step or two to improve my angle if needed. I'm quite aware that this is unorthodox and goes against the CCA Manual, but confident in working it this way and pregame it with my partners so they're prepared.  

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6 hours ago, MadMax said:

Did you miss this, @ilyazhito? Mudder isn’t making for an easy read, since he’s using “U1” instead of “BU”.

From where did you, @Mudder pick up that you should go to B with 2 outs, R3 only? Likely, you got it from a Fed colleague or trainer, who himself picked it up from some loose-leaf manual or advisement or “clinic” that emphasized the need to get on the 1B side of the centerline (running from plate, through mound, to 2B) on a play at 1B, especially on 2 outs, because that’s where the most likely play is going to go. Yes, it’s important, but that doesn’t mean your IP should be at B. Doubly so, you cannot be at B with R2 in the 2-man System, even with 2-outs. Even with R2 and R3. What if a WP/PB occurs, and both runners advance, with F2 ignoring R3 scoring so as to throw to 3B?? What if there is a pickoff at 3B? Are you really in an optimum position for that call, in B?

Do you shift over to B with bases loaded and 2 outs? I hope not, and trust you don’t. But according to your proposed rationale, why is that any different?

No, the CCA, the official FED umpire manual, and Texas HS umpire manual has us in C for R2 only, R3 only, R2+R3, R1+R2, and R1+R2+R3, with two outs, because we, as BU’s are expected to get our ass across the centerline

Added the bold to make it clear that FED is not the bogeyman. But we do have umpires that join our HS chapter that have been "trained" by word of mouth at the PONY, travel and LL levels that do modify our taught mechanics. But that is not a FED problem as you can see NCAA umpires sometimes do their own thing. The last college 2 man clinic I attended a few years ago was adamant that the BU be in C with R3 no matter what the outs due to their perception of the backpick potential no matter what the outs. BTW the FED manual is probably the reason @Mudder is using U1 for the BU in two man. Wish they would change that.

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21 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

Look at me, Ma!  I'm moderatin'!!

Done.

There goes the neighborhood........

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15 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

There goes the neighborhood........

I blame Warren.

(I *would* quote the Groucho Marx line about this sort of thing, but that REALLY cements my status as an "old.")

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2-man U1 in D for R2/R3 or R3 only was just a thought experiment on my part. I wouldn't do that on a real field during a real game. U1 in D with R3 only might have some merit, because R3 would disappear on a base hit, and U1 could cut towards 2nd base as a U3 would in a 3-man game, to pick up the BR. However, I would rather stay at C if there was a possible play at 2nd base or 3rd in an R2/R3 situation. 

The 3-man system has a better solution (U1 in B, to be able to go either to 2nd or 1st base, with U3 in a (short) D position), but it would take some time before 3-man is generally adopted during the regular season. 

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20 minutes ago, ilyazhito said:

2-man U1 in D for R2/R3 or R3 only was just a thought experiment on my part. I wouldn't do that on a real field during a real game. U1 in D with R3 only might have some merit, because R3 would disappear on a base hit, and U1 could cut towards 2nd base as a U3 would in a 3-man game, to pick up the BR.

Some merit? I suppose, if you mean it in the literal sense, there is merit to this that is greater than zero, but not much.

What does BU do on a grounder to F6's right or F5's left? He'll be looking up the ass of that play to 1B. What happens on a footrace on a ball hit to the right side? Not a chance. F4's rushed throw pulls F3 towards right field? You have nothing.

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On 5/23/2019 at 4:11 PM, humanbackstop19 said:

R3, I'm always going to stay in shallow C, regardless of outs.

However, R2/R3 and 2 outs only, I will slip back into a deep B if it's a higher level of competition.  My reasoning behind this is (1) IMOP, better teams are exponentially more likely to back pick at second base, not third, and (2) I can slide inside or outside on a routine ground ball in a much better position.  In a deep B, I'm only a drop step or two back and I'm getting a really good look on that runner coming back into second base.  I do sacrifice a bit of the distance on R3, but can take a step or two to improve my angle if needed. I'm quite aware that this is unorthodox and goes against the CCA Manual, but confident in working it this way and pregame it with my partners so they're prepared.  

And you're screwing yourself if they do backpick to third. There is no way a step or two can get you in position from deep B.

2-umpire is all about compromises. You cannot take yourself entirely out of one play just because another one is more probable.

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16 hours ago, Matt said:

Some merit? I suppose, if you mean it in the literal sense, there is merit to this that is greater than zero, but not much.

What does BU do on a grounder to F6's right or F5's left? He'll be looking up the ass of that play to 1B. What happens on a footrace on a ball hit to the right side? Not a chance. F4's rushed throw pulls F3 towards right field? You have nothing.

Isn't U1 looking up the ass of that play from C anyway? It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

Re: merit, I meant that in the literal sense. I wanted to play devil's advocate and see if there was a situation where U1 in D might make sense for a 2-umpire game. 

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9 minutes ago, ilyazhito said:

Isn't U1 looking up the ass of that play from C anyway? It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

Re: merit, I meant that in the literal sense. I wanted to play devil's advocate and see if there was a situation where U1 in D might make sense for a 2-umpire game. 

Not if you're not a statue. On a ball hit to U1's right in C, they should be moving to the left to get an angle.

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