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Guest Blue Bayou

Balk or not

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Guest Blue Bayou

Pitcher pickoff doesnt clear the rubber with free foot, but free foot does move towards 2B. Is that a balk ?

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33 minutes ago, Guest Blue Bayou said:

Pitcher pickoff doesnt clear the rubber with free foot, but free foot does move towards 2B. Is that a balk ?

There is no rule that the free foot has to clear the rubber on a pick off to second base.  As long as he gained distance and direction, he's legal.

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Guest BlueBayou

To be clear, the free foot does not have to move past the pivot foot. The free foot just has to move closer towards 2B from where it was originally. Do I have that correct ? 

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It's a balk.  The free foot does need to clear the rubber -- otherwise it's a move to come set (perhaps for the second time).

 

Se this thread:

http://umpire-empire.com/topic/68201-gaining-ground-toward-2nd/

 

Most of the correct answers / support are on the second page (or some other page, depending on your particular "posts per page" setting).

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12 hours ago, noumpere said:

It's a balk.  The free foot does need to clear the rubber -- otherwise it's a move to come set (perhaps for the second time).

 

Se this thread:

http://umpire-empire.com/topic/68201-gaining-ground-toward-2nd/

 

Most of the correct answers / support are on the second page (or some other page, depending on your particular "posts per page" setting).

Interesting that clearing the rubber appears to be required (by interpretation) in NCAA.  Jim Evans seems to agree for OBR.  I wonder how Fed feels about it.  I have given guidance to a HS coach that clearing the rubber is not required, and nothing in that thread convinces me otherwise for Fed.

As to it being a move to come set, this I cannot agree with.  Once the pitcher has come to a complete stop, there is no way to interpret an inside move as a second move to come set.  Once he lifts that foot, he's either pitching or stepping and throwing to a base.

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19 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Interesting that clearing the rubber appears to be required (by interpretation) in NCAA.  Jim Evans seems to agree for OBR.  I wonder how Fed feels about it.  I have given guidance to a HS coach that clearing the rubber is not required, and nothing in that thread convinces me otherwise for Fed.

As to it being a move to come set, this I cannot agree with.  Once the pitcher has come to a complete stop, there is no way to interpret an inside move as a second move to come set.  Once he lifts that foot, he's either pitching or stepping and throwing to a base.

F1 comes set with his feet shoulder-width apart. He then lifts his free foot and puts it down so that it's a foot closer to the rubber. What do you have? 

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3 hours ago, Matt said:

F1 comes set with his feet shoulder-width apart. He then lifts his free foot and puts it down so that it's a foot closer to the rubber. What do you have? 

I have something visually very different from an inside move where F1 steps towards second base but doesn't clear the rubber.  I'm quite certain you could distinguish between the two 100 times out of 100, and so can the runners.

The NCAA is usually very good about being specific in the rules about these types of things, but they have failed to do so in this case.  But if Randy Bruns wants it to be called a balk, then I will call it a balk in my NCAA games (if I'm ever healthy enough to work games again).  

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Maybe this should be it's own thread, but it's kinda related. What about on a move to first, where the pitcher steps back, onto the rubber, then throws to first? It seems to me that this isn't properly disengaging, thus making a feint/not gaining ground illegal, but I'm not totally sure. What if he executes it like a jump throw?

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13 hours ago, Biscuit said:

Maybe this should be it's own thread, but it's kinda related. What about on a move to first, where the pitcher steps back, onto the rubber, then throws to first? It seems to me that this isn't properly disengaging, thus making a feint/not gaining ground illegal, but I'm not totally sure. What if he executes it like a jump throw?

A jump throw is considered to be a move from the rubber.

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15 hours ago, noumpere said:

A jump throw is considered to be a move from the rubber.

So in that case, it doesn't matter where his foot lands, as long as his free gains distance to first? What about when he disengages and steps on top of the rubber?

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1 hour ago, Biscuit said:

So in that case, it doesn't matter where his foot lands, as long as his free gains distance to first? What about when he disengages and steps on top of the rubber?

?  If he's disengaged, what difference does it make?  If he's engaged, it makes a difference. The restrictions apply when the pitcher is engaged. 

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27 minutes ago, Tborze said:

?  If he's disengaged, what difference does it make?  If he's engaged, it makes a difference. The restrictions apply when the pitcher is engaged.

My question was really, is this a proper disengagement? If he's disengaged, then yeah, it's fine, but does stepping on, not behind, the rubber count?

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Mr. Biscuit, both NCAA and FED rules make it abundantly clear that the pitcher must step behind the rubber to legally disengage. Unfortunately, the OBR rule (rule 5.07a-1 Comment C) isn’t quite as definitive about it but it can be construed to be the same as NCAA and the FED.

2018 NFHS rule 6-1-3…In order to change to the wind-up position, he must first step clearly backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other infielder.

2018 NCAA rule 9-1a-1c...Disengage from the pitching rubber by stepping back off the rubber and placing the pivot foot on the ground behind the rubber before separating the hands or stepping back with the free foot

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9 hours ago, Biscuit said:

So in that case, it doesn't matter where his foot lands, as long as his free gains distance to first? What about when he disengages and steps on top of the rubber?

Having the foot on top of the rubber is a legal pitching position (assuming the other requirements are met).  So, a pitcher touching the top must be engaged;  therefore. moving the pivot foot from "in front and touching" to "on top" is not a legal disengagement.

 

How well it's seen / enforced is a slightly different matter.

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3 hours ago, noumpere said:

Having the foot on top of the rubber is a legal pitching position (assuming the other requirements are met).  So, a pitcher touching the top must be engaged;  therefore. moving the pivot foot from "in front and touching" to "on top" is not a legal disengagement.

 

How well it's seen / enforced is a slightly different matter.

Thanks @noumpere and @Senor Azul! I had a pitcher doing this quite a bit in a game the other day, and I thought it would be a balk, but I wasn't sure, and the other team wasn't complaining, so... Didn't pick up that stick.

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Once a pitcher moves his pivot foot the runners know it's time to retreat because the only thing that can happen then is potentially bad.

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