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So I've seen a few umpires do this is a 2man system: R1, on a DP the PU comes out to the pitcher's mound and is watching 2B for INT/OBS while BU is getting the safe/outs at 2B and 1B. Is this a standard mechanic I haven't known about? If so, what's the correct way to employ it as far as situations and positioning?

Another Q, with R1, when PU rotates up the line, on a ball to the outfield, how do you guys judge whether to commit either way? Right now, I get half-way between HP and 3B and just react to the play and yell at my partner whether I'm staying or covering. I ask mainly b/c I've gotten close to blowing up plays on myself by being caught out of position.

Thanks! -BR

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Yes, the PU is responsible for the slide at second if that ball leaves second base, since the BU will be watching the play at first. You’re looking for the legality of the slide. 

If it looks like it’s pretty much a single with a possible play at third, read it and continue to move for the play there. Once I know a throw is coming, I commit hard to the last distance I need to cover. If it appears R1 has third base easily (maybe it’s a double, or it was a ball down the RF line, etc), I’m telling my partner I’m staying home. Maybe the OF kicks it while picking it up. I’ll then tell my partner I’m going back home. I guess my main advice is start to move, but don’t commit too hard or far until you see a throw setting up to go into third.

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The way I've been taught is bust up the line in foul territory, observe from there, (AKA the Library), and only move into the cutout in you have a play....That means only if you have a ball and runner coming into 3B. 

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7 hours ago, BlueRanger said:

So I've seen a few umpires do this is a 2man system: R1, on a DP the PU comes out to the pitcher's mound and is watching 2B for INT/OBS while BU is getting the safe/outs at 2B and 1B. Is this a standard mechanic I haven't known about? If so, what's the correct way to employ it as far as situations and positioning?

I'm curious as to what mechanic you have been using, if not this?  You are from TX, so maybe Carl's "mechanics for the 21st century" (or whatever he called them) have crept in.

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1 hour ago, noumpere said:

I'm curious as to what mechanic you have been using, if not this?  You are from TX, so maybe Carl's "mechanics for the 21st century" (or whatever he called them) have crept in.

I've been watching 1B for a pulled foot :(. Have yet to have any issues on slides that weren't covered by BU. Most of my knowledge of mechanics comes from here, some from UmpireBible, and the rest from the guys in my group, so I never really knew if it was a TASO thing or something they picked up elsewhere, hence the question.

-BR

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26 minutes ago, BlueRanger said:

I've been watching 1B for a pulled foot :(. Have yet to have any issues on slides that weren't covered by BU. Most of my knowledge of mechanics comes from here, some from UmpireBible, and the rest from the guys in my group, so I never really knew if it was a TASO thing or something they picked up elsewhere, hence the question.

-BR

You can get that after you determine whether the slide at second was legal or illegal (well, if it was illegal, then there's no need to look at first -- BR is out anyway; at least in FED and NCAA).

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From the NCAA Rule Book:

Note 2: On a force play, with a two-man umpiring system, if the plate umpire does
not have a potential play at the plate
, he should move toward the base to observe
the runner going into second or third base. In this situation, the base umpire must
follow the throw and may not see the true effect of the lead runner’s action.

I've highlighted potential play at the plate. If you have an R3, you will not be coming out into the infield. You can still observe the slide at 2nd by moving to the right. An illegal slide would have to be blatantly obvious for you to make that call from there. In which case, your partner would have seen it. You are also responsible for overthrows.

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On the first question, as PU, you need to be on your toes, but provided the ball stays on the infield, you should not be rotating to 3B. With that said, you’ll see nothing more or different from the plate than near the mound where these guys are bounding off to. Furthermore, by moving out towards the mound, they’re taking themselves completely out of position for where their support is needed: Pulled foot / swipe tag and going with the ball on a potential overthrow... which have a heightened chance of happening on the back-end of a DP attempt!

The chances of pulled foot / swipe tag / overthrow are higher than Interference at 2B. I have a hunch that some association stooge or evaluator recognized that BU’s are not getting enough Int / FPSR violations; but, instead of motivating BUs to improve on getting Int, and holding them accountable, they are directing PUs to move, unnecessarily and counter-productively, towards the mound.

It’s not a taught, or standard mechanic.

Then, on the second, this is one of those instances where understanding the context (knowing what level this game is at, and the speed of the runners and the throwing ability of the fielders) helps you anticipate the move towards 3B. Read everything on the move. At some point, however, recognize when/if a R1 is going to just go for Home. Get a glimpse of the fielder, and whether or not he’s made a throw yet. Pick up on the 3BC, if he’s beckoning him to stop, or slide at 3B, or if he’s encouraging him to go-go-GO!

If you do go for 3B, remember that you don’t have anyone behind you, so you have to get there and prepare for a play, and possible overthrow wherein you take the R1 to the plate, too.

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2 hours ago, BlueRanger said:

I've been watching 1B for a pulled foot :(. Have yet to have any issues on slides that weren't covered by BU. Most of my knowledge of mechanics comes from here, some from UmpireBible, and the rest from the guys in my group, so I never really knew if it was a TASO thing or something they picked up elsewhere, hence the question.

-BR

You should be asking your association what mechanics they use. If they don't have one, ask TASO what the recommended mechanics are. Get the book and read it.

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29 minutes ago, MadMax said:

On the first question, as PU, you need to be on your toes, but provided the ball stays on the infield, you should not be rotating to 3B. With that said, you’ll see nothing more or different from the plate than near the mound where these guys are bounding off to. Furthermore, by moving out towards the mound, they’re taking themselves completely out of position for where their support is needed: Pulled foot / swipe tag and going with the ball on a potential overthrow... which have a heightened chance of happening on the back-end of a DP attempt!

The chances of pulled foot / swipe tag / overthrow are higher than Interference at 2B. I have a hunch that some association stooge or evaluator recognized that BU’s are not getting enough Int / FPSR violations; but, instead of motivating BUs to improve on getting Int, and holding them accountable, they are directing PUs to move, unnecessarily and counter-productively, towards the mound.

It’s not a taught, or standard mechanic.

Then, on the second, this is one of those instances where understanding the context (knowing what level this game is at, and the speed of the runners and the throwing ability of the fielders) helps you anticipate the move towards 3B. Read everything on the move. At some point, however, recognize when/if a R1 is going to just go for Home. Get a glimpse of the fielder, and whether or not he’s made a throw yet. Pick up on the 3BC, if he’s beckoning him to stop, or slide at 3B, or if he’s encouraging him to go-go-GO!

If you do go for 3B, remember that you don’t have anyone behind you, so you have to get there and prepare for a play, and possible overthrow wherein you take the R1 to the plate, too.

In a HS game? I don't agree. I think I've had more interference calls (or close no calls that really needed a good long look) than I've had partners asking me for a pulled foot/swipe tag at 1st on the back end of a double play.

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1 hour ago, MadMax said:

On the first question, as PU, you need to be on your toes, but provided the ball stays on the infield, you should not be rotating to 3B. With that said, you’ll see nothing more or different from the plate than near the mound where these guys are bounding off to. Furthermore, by moving out towards the mound, they’re taking themselves completely out of position for where their support is needed: Pulled foot / swipe tag and going with the ball on a potential overthrow... which have a heightened chance of happening on the back-end of a DP attempt!

The chances of pulled foot / swipe tag / overthrow are higher than Interference at 2B. I have a hunch that some association stooge or evaluator recognized that BU’s are not getting enough Int / FPSR violations; but, instead of motivating BUs to improve on getting Int, and holding them accountable, they are directing PUs to move, unnecessarily and counter-productively, towards the mound.

It’s not a taught, or standard mechanic.

Then, on the second, this is one of those instances where understanding the context (knowing what level this game is at, and the speed of the runners and the throwing ability of the fielders) helps you anticipate the move towards 3B. Read everything on the move. At some point, however, recognize when/if a R1 is going to just go for Home. Get a glimpse of the fielder, and whether or not he’s made a throw yet. Pick up on the 3BC, if he’s beckoning him to stop, or slide at 3B, or if he’s encouraging him to go-go-GO!

If you do go for 3B, remember that you don’t have anyone behind you, so you have to get there and prepare for a play, and possible overthrow wherein you take the R1 to the plate, too.

The bold is taught in CCA and some high school mechanics. If R1 is safe and goes to 3B the PU does rotate there in CCA. If R1 is out the PU has secondary responsibility for pulled foot and swipe tag. Texas also did the same as CCA but changed the side of the mound recently to the 1B side. Before that was changed anyone of us that was on the 3B side of the mound for the slide at 2B would cover 3B if there was a runner and ball going there since we were already in that neck of the woods.

Earlier PBUC and Jim Evans also had PU go toward 3B for coverage if R1 was safe at 2B. If R1 was out they had PU go back to line up pulled foot etc. I don't know what MiLB is teaching now.

The back end of the DP in two man is one of the hardest calls. You don't want the BU pausing to figure out what he just saw at 2B before pivoting with the throw. If there is no throw of course he can call it.

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1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Earlier PBUC and Jim Evans also had PU go toward 3B for coverage if R1 was safe at 2B. If R1 was out they had PU go back to line up pulled foot etc. I don't know what MiLB is teaching now.

This is still the MiLB mechanic. With R1 only and a ground ball on the infield PU should be moving up towards third base. If R1 is retired at second base, PU moves back towards the first base line to watch the play at first base. If not, go to the library. 

BU is responsible for the slide at second. Yeah, it's a tough one to see but it's his responsibility. 

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15 hours ago, BlueRanger said:

So I've seen a few umpires do this is a 2man system: R1, on a DP the PU comes out to the pitcher's mound and is watching 2B for INT/OBS while BU is getting the safe/outs at 2B and 1B. Is this a standard mechanic I haven't known about? If so, what's the correct way to employ it as far as situations and positioning?

Another Q, with R1, when PU rotates up the line, on a ball to the outfield, how do you guys judge whether to commit either way? Right now, I get half-way between HP and 3B and just react to the play and yell at my partner whether I'm staying or covering. I ask mainly b/c I've gotten close to blowing up plays on myself by being caught out of position.

Thanks! -BR

I have not been going to the pitcher's mound, but more up the line to the 45 and then slightly inside to get a better angle on the slide at second, but not TOO far out of line to watch the pulled foot/swipe tag.

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You really have to go out towards the hill, get stopped, see the illegal slide and then sell the $hit out of the call while stepping more towards second base. By the time they figure out what happened, it looks like you've really closed the distance to make that call. They aren't going to believe you if your some distance away, like up the line or staying near home if a runner is at third. That's why I said in my first post that it better be blatantly obvious if you make this call from a distance.

 

Disclaimer: They never believe us anyway no matter what we do.

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2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

The bold is taught in CCA and some high school mechanics. If R1 is safe and goes to 3B the PU does rotate there in CCA. .

Earlier PBUC and Jim Evans also had PU go toward 3B for coverage if R1 was safe at 2B. If R1 was out they had PU go back to line up pulled foot etc. I don't know what MiLB is teaching now.

 

FWIW (nothing, I know), I hate this mechanic.  I prefer "if the batted ball doesn't leave the infield, PU doesn't leave the plate" (and I don't mean "leave" literally -- it means no calls on the bases), and give the next call at third to BU. 

It's no different from R2, grounder to F6 who looks R2 back, then throws to first and now R2 takes off.  BU covers both ends of that, he can cover both ends of R1 heading to third.

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15 hours ago, BlueRanger said:

Another Q, with R1, when PU rotates up the line, on a ball to the outfield, how do you guys judge whether to commit either way? Right now, I get half-way between HP and 3B and just react to the play and yell at my partner whether I'm staying or covering. I ask mainly b/c I've gotten close to blowing up plays on myself by being caught out of position.

 

Let me address your second question (PU rotation on ball hit to the outfield). 

Once you conclusively determine that the fly ball is not in your area of outfield responsibility (that is, it is hit in the "V" such that the catch/no catch is your partner's responsibility), you should move quickly up the the third base line (about 2-3 feet in foul territory).  As you are moving toward third base, you should be yelling, "I got third if he comes!  I've got third if he comes!"  (If it is a can-of-corn fly ball, you probably don't need to yell too enthusiastically.)  However, by telling your partner, "I've got third if he comes," you have let your partner know that the fly ball is definitely his responsibility.  You want to go about 3/4th of the way up the line.  You can then come stopped.  If the ball is caught, and R1 retreats toward first base, you can simply retreat home.  Tell your partner, "I'm going home," and as you return to the plate, keep your chest (and eyes) out toward the field.  Retreat quickly in case there is a play at first base with an overthrow.

If the ball is uncaught:  (1) if you see R1 coming in toward third base and you determine that there is NOT going to be a throw to third base, you need to tell your partner, "I'm going home!"  Then, you must run hard back to the plate.  The reason is that if only the runner (and not the ball) is coming into third base, there is little likelihood of a play occurring there.  However, if the runner keeps going, there may be a play at the plate.  So, we want to get the umpire back to the plate area ahead of R1.  (2) If you see the ball coming to third, but R1 holds at second...then you just stay put 3/4th  of the way up the line.  If the ball is overthrown, you can rule on the ball going into DBT.  Otherwise, if the throw is caught...at the end of the play you can tell your partner that, "I'm going home," and you can trot back to the plate area.  (3) If you see both the ball and runner coming toward third base, you can now anticipate a play occurring at that base.  At that point, you bust from 3/4ths of the way up the line (2-3 feet in foul territory) into the middle of the third-base cutout yelling to your partner, "I've got third!  I've got third!.  Then, watch (timing, timing, timing) and rule on the play.  If the ball gets away and the runner starts for home, you will run toward the plate in fair territory.  

The keys are this:

(1)  Don't stay around the plate area (or in the library...5-10 feet up the third base line) on a ball hit to the outfield.  You are likely slower than R1.  Use what time you have to get 3/4th of the way up the line.  Too many guys wait until the ball is uncaught before they start hustling toward third base.  If you are umpiring shaving-aged players, you are inviting disaster by doing this.  On balls hit deep, a fast R1 will sometimes go 85-89 feet toward second base because they know they can make it back to first if the ball is caught (especially on fly balls to deep left center and left field).  They do this because if the flyball is uncaught, they are going to try to make it to third.  I ask you this: if you start at the "library" and a fast R1 starts a step or two on the first base side of second base...are you going to make it to the middle of the third base cutout in time to rule on a play at third base?  For most of us the answer is a resounding "NO". I have seen a lot of umpires arrive late at third base on a first-to-third rotation because they meander around the plate area until it is too late.  Often, it is too late when the ball conclusively falls to the ground uncaught.  So...don't stick around in the library or plate area.  Get 3/4ths of the way up the line.  You can always retreat home if the ball is caught.

(2)  Admittedly, how quickly you move up the third base line can vary.  If you see a fly ball to right field that has the right fielder camped under it forever...then you probably don't need to move too quickly because R1 is likely already retreating back to first base (because the ball is in right field).  In this case, if F9 boots it, there is more likely going to be a force play at second base than a play at third.  Thus, you can be slow(er) in moving up to third.  However, if R1 is not retreating and the ball is still in the air...you need to keep moving toward third base.  Then, if the fly ball is then caught, and R1 starts retreating to first, you can then retreat toward the plate to rule on an overthrow.

(3)  The bottom line is this:  It is more important for you to be in position (in the middle of the third base cutout in a 2-man crew) to see a play at third base on a first-to-third rotation, than it is for you to be in perfect position to see if a ball barely went into dead ball territory (DBT) on an overthrow trying to double-up a retreating R1 at first base.  Two man mechanics is a series of compromises.  This is one such compromise.  You are more likely to take a lot of grief being out of position for a "whacker" call at third base, than you are for not being in perfect position to see if the ball barely went over a white chalk line on an overthrow. 

(4)  TALK TO YOUR PARTNER.  Using the standard and accepted phrases ["I've got third if he comes", "I've got third", "I'm on the line", and "I'm going home"] conveys vital information to your partner.  

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17 hours ago, noumpere said:

FWIW (nothing, I know), I hate this mechanic.  I prefer "if the batted ball doesn't leave the infield, PU doesn't leave the plate" (and I don't mean "leave" literally -- it means no calls on the bases), and give the next call at third to BU. 

It's no different from R2, grounder to F6 who looks R2 back, then throws to first and now R2 takes off.  BU covers both ends of that, he can cover both ends of R1 heading to third.

PBUC, MiLB, and Jim Evans are also addressing an audience of 20 year olds. Most associations are average age 54, which is why most associations have simplified this mechanic.

Can you imagine Joe West getting to 3rd base for this play?

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16 minutes ago, Vumpire said:

PBUC, MiLB, and Jim Evans are also addressing an audience of 20 year olds. Most associations are average age 54, which is why most associations have simplified this mechanic.

Can you imagine Joe West getting to 3rd base for this play?

You will have to show me where he missed a rotation in 4-man. But is the mechanic simplified for both balls in the infield and base hits? My association has not simplified anything but we  do, on our own, modify our mechanics for an overweight or overage (a relative term) partner that might not have the mobility needed.

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On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 10:15 AM, Vumpire said:

PBUC, MiLB, and Jim Evans are also addressing an audience of 20 year olds. Most associations are average age 54, which is why most associations have simplified this mechanic.

Can you imagine Joe West getting to 3rd base for this play?

Joe's not going to 3B. 

 

He's going to the working area and getting the best look he can in two man.  Simple.

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Joe West is not working 2-man. There would have to be a catastrophic sequence of events to injure 2 umpires on a 4-umpire crew. 

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