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goody14

Runner leaves early - ball thrown out of play

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This is my first year working Babe Ruth/Cal Ripken with the special 60ft running rules.

I understand that when the bases are loaded if a runner leaves early no run can score when the ball stays in the infield (if the batter reaches, we remove the runner on 3rd with no out and no run). But, what is the shortstop throws the ball out of play.

If I were on a field, I would rationalize that the error means the batter gets more than one base - so the runners would as well (basically they can go as far as the batter much like a ball hit to the OF). I would put batter on second, R1 to 3rd and score two runs. Is this right?

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The rule you are looking for can be found on page 13 (in the front matter) of the 2018 Babe Ruth/Cal Ripken rule book:

b. When any base runner leaves the base before the pitched ball has reached home plate and the batter bunts or hits a ball within the infield, no run shall be allowed to score. If three runners were on the bases and the batter reaches first base safely, each runner shall advance to the base beyond the one they occupied at the start of the play except the runner who occupied third base, which runner shall be removed from the base without a run being scored. NOTE: See exception following the rules.

c. When a base runner leaves the base before the pitched ball has reached home plate and the batter hits the ball to the outfield, the base runner or runners are permitted to continue. If a play is made and the runner or runners are put out, the out or outs will stand. If not put out, the runner or runners must return to the original base or bases or to the unoccupied base nearest the one left. In no event shall the batter advance beyond first base on a single or error, second base on a double or third base on a triple. The umpire-in-chief shall determine the base value of the hit ball.

NOTE: When there is a base running violation, the umpire should signal such infraction by indicating a delayed dead ball. EXCEPTION: If at the conclusion of the play there is an open base, paragraphs (a) and (b) will apply.

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Man - if we uphold (b) with no exceptions (I think this is what you are trying to get across), then that is one honey of a penalty for leaving early. Of course (b) says if the batter reaches first safely. In my example he would have reached second safely.

I suppose I was wondering if there are a further interpretation to cover the ball out of play. But you are right, without that, it is a ball in the infield and no runner can score. I don't see clause (b) being an exact match.

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1 hour ago, goody14 said:

Man - if we uphold (b) with no exceptions (I think this is what you are trying to get across), then that is one honey of a penalty for leaving early. Of course (b) says if the batter reaches first safely. In my example he would have reached second safely.

I suppose I was wondering if there are a further interpretation to cover the ball out of play. But you are right, without that, it is a ball in the infield and no runner can score. I don't see clause (b) being an exact match.

All you need to know is "hit within the infield".  If that happens then the penalty applies. Whatever happens after never happened. 

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God bless the ''disappearing' runner rules.

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This sounds much like the 7.13 rule in Little League.

The overwhelming guidance is based on the fact that the offense violated a rule and should be penalized.  So if the ball pings around or goes out of play, the batter is still only going to get first base.  All other runners return, except R3 who is retired to the dugout.  He's not out, but he cannot score.  He goes "Poof!"

Yes, it goes against logic that if the defense errs, they should have to deal with the consequences;  but the offense committed a violation before the ball was hit.  They have to suffer.

 

Mike

Las Vegas

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Based on my knowledge of the "Poof" circumstance that Doc explained to us at the LL umpire school.

r3 goes poof 

br advances to 3rd 

r1, r2 score  

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7 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Based on my knowledge of the "Poof" circumstance that Doc explained to us at the LL umpire school.

r3 goes poof 

br advances to 3rd 

r1, r2 score  

How does a BR acquire 3b anc R1 score on a ground ball to SS that is thrown OOP?  

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I've always wondered how that disappearing runner is explained on a scoresheet - wonder if GameChanger has that provision.

 

LL softball  is so much easier - runner out, no pitch, other runners return.

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On 5/23/2019 at 4:36 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

Based on my knowledge of the "Poof" circumstance that Doc explained to us at the LL umpire school.

r3 goes poof 

br advances to 3rd 

r1, r2 score  

NOPE! You understood incorrectly.  

7.13(c )  " . . no run shall be allowed to score."

R3 goes poof.  B-R to 1B, R1 to 2B, R2 to 3B.

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2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Yep but what about the throw OOP 

 

Runner leaving early overrides it.  "...NO RUN SHALL BE ALLOWED TO SCORE."

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On 4/23/2019 at 1:13 PM, Rich Ives said:

All you need to know is "hit within the infield".  If that happens then the penalty applies. Whatever happens after never happened. 

If the defense turns a 6-4-3 DP that stands though, right?  Then R3 and R2 would return?   The "poof" only happens if all runners reach their base safely, otherwise the play is allowed to continue after the violation occurs.

What happens on a walk - bases loaded, runner leaves early, ball four.   Everyone advances, I think and R3 scores.  Is play killed immediately because of the runner leaving early...or could defense conceivably throw ball away and have runners advance further?

My personal fave is the runner leaves early, and on the ground ball to short the runner beats out the throw to second (because he left early), if BR reaches safely there is no penalty.

 

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7 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If the defense turns a 6-4-3 DP that stands though, right?  Yes. Then R3 and R2 would return?  Yes  The "poof" only happens if all runners reach their base safely, otherwise the play is allowed to continue after the violation occurs.  Yes and no. Batter-runner can only go to 1B. Runners can only advance as far as pushed by the batter-runner getting to 1B so a continuation is limited to that.

What happens on a walk - bases loaded, runner leaves early, ball four.  Was the ball HIT within the infield? That answer should answer your questions. Everyone advances, I think and R3 scores.  Is play killed immediately because of the runner leaving early...or could defense conceivably throw ball away and have runners advance further?

My personal fave is the runner leaves early, and on the ground ball to short the runner beats out the throw to second (because he left early), if BR reaches safely there is no penalty. True. Loophole.

 

Interspaced

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Ok I found my error in thinking.

If the batter hits a gapper that he turns into a triple than the runs score.

However because its an error and he would have only gotten a single the BR cannot advance further than 1st thus the poof for R3 and r1,r2 move one bag up.

 

 

 

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well, that's where there is specifics in LL.  If a runner leaves early, the umpire "shall judge the value of the hit" and not allow the batter to advance past that on an error (unless put out)...... or something to that wording.  Am I close there @Rich Ives?

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20 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

well, that's where there is specifics in LL.  If a runner leaves early, the umpire "shall judge the value of the hit" and not allow the batter to advance past that on an error (unless put out)...... or something to that wording.  Am I close there @Rich Ives?

Spot on.

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This is what I don't get about LLBB.  This has come up so many times at congress, its unreal.  It gets voted down because "it's to harsh for the players" (I'll get to that in a minute.....

LLBB- Runner leaves early, Umpire judges value of the hit, errors?,  returns runners as necessary, answers questions about "poof", all while covering their responsibilities.

LLSB - TIME!  She left early!  She's out!.........

........ok for the girls..................and THAT is too harsh for boys?............

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What I do not get is why boys don't use the flying start.

 

But the truth why its harder on girls

 

They leave when the ball is released from the pitchers hand. That there is pretty easy to determine.

Boys,  Its when it reaches "The batter"  completely subjective to the Umpire.  How I interpret that is if the batter has opportunity to swing at the pitch it has reached him. To me if hes standing in the back of the box I don't care he had the opportunity to stand in the front of the box so I call it at the front of the batters box.  That's how I interpret that so I play it that way. No arguments from anyone on it yet.

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On 5/30/2019 at 11:57 AM, Aging_Arbiter said:

This is what I don't get about LLBB.  This has come up so many times at congress, its unreal.  It gets voted down because "it's to harsh for the players" (I'll get to that in a minute.....

LLBB- Runner leaves early, Umpire judges value of the hit, errors?,  returns runners as necessary, answers questions about "poof", all while covering their responsibilities.

LLSB - TIME!  She left early!  She's out!.........

........ok for the girls..................and THAT is too harsh for boys?............

It's ALWAYS an out in softball. Always. At every level. It's permanent. 

In LLBB it's a no-lead off rule due to the field size. Once on a larger field lead-offs are allowed - just as they are at every other level.  It's just a temporary restriction for 12 and under players so they can concentrate on more basic skills.

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9 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

What I do not get is why boys don't use the flying start.

 

I don't even see that in higher level softball. 

 

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