This Happened................almost

[Guest Fatcity]

NFHS:  Long inning, home teams sends nine to the plate, inning ends as R1 is picked off.  As home team takes the field visitors talk to Plate who then calls me over.

(Quick background: #25 is the DH for F1 #8 in the five hole)  Visitors state that #8 batted for #3 in the seven hole and somebody has to get run.  We were kinda surprised

but finally figured out that the confusion arose due to the similarity of  players numbers 3&8 and in fact nothing improper occurred.  I know this is just too stupid to actually

happen but....................what if?  Have checked substitution, out of order etc. but am unsure how this would be handled if in fact this did happen.   Thanks.

 

[Replacematt]

26 minutes ago, Guest Fatcity said:

NFHS:  Long inning, home teams sends nine to the plate, inning ends as R1 is picked off.  As home team takes the field visitors talk to Plate who then calls me over.

(Quick background: #25 is the DH for F1 #8 in the five hole)  Visitors state that #8 batted for #3 in the seven hole and somebody has to get run.  We were kinda surprised

but finally figured out that the confusion arose due to the similarity of  players numbers 3&8 and in fact nothing improper occurred.  I know this is just too stupid to actually

happen but....................what if?  Have checked substitution, out of order etc. but am unsure how this would be handled if in fact this did happen.   Thanks.

 

Where were the visiting teams' players when they brought this up? Who were the last two batters who actually batted?

[umpstu]

36 minutes ago, Guest Fatcity said:

NFHS:  Long inning, home teams sends nine to the plate, inning ends as R1 is picked off.  As home team takes the field visitors talk to Plate who then calls me over.

(Quick background: #25 is the DH for F1 #8 in the five hole)  Visitors state that #8 batted for #3 in the seven hole and somebody has to get run.  We were kinda surprised

but finally figured out that the confusion arose due to the similarity of  players numbers 3&8 and in fact nothing improper occurred.  I know this is just too stupid to actually

happen but....................what if?  Have checked substitution, out of order etc. but am unsure how this would be handled if in fact this did happen.   Thanks.

 

Why would somebody get run for batting out of order?

[Replacematt]

3 minutes ago, umpstu said:

Why would somebody get run for batting out of order?

I think they were arguing 8 was an illegal substitute. I think 8 was the pitcher, and if this was the case, then he indeed would be ejected.

[Jimurray]

11 minutes ago, Matt said:

I think they were arguing 8 was an illegal substitute. I think 8 was the pitcher, and if this was the case, then he indeed would be ejected.

Wouldn’t that be restricted?

[Replacematt]

2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Wouldn’t that be restricted?

Might be. I don't remember offhand. 

[MadMax]

5 minutes ago, Guest Fatcity said:

(home) inning ends as R1 is picked off.

Okay, end of the inning.

6 minutes ago, Guest Fatcity said:

As home team takes the field visitors talk to Plate who then calls me over.

If you're being called over between innings, guard yourself... it's usually because somebody doesn't know a rule.

12 minutes ago, Guest Fatcity said:

Visitors state that #8 batted for #3 in the seven hole and somebody has to get run.

Why? This is a very audacious demand to make! Downright insulting! There are three things to keep in mind, here...

1. Numbers are not (that) important. Names are. In NFHS (as in OBR), two players can have the same number (or even be lacking numbers) and still be in the lineup. In those events, we (as umpires and scorekeepers) must have names. So, confusion over #3 looking like #8 can be handled simply by asking, "Is that Jeff?" "Yes" "And that must mean he is... Liam?" "Yup." "And Jeff batted when and where he was supposed to, so what's the problem?"... or something like that.
2. An unreported substitution is not necessarily illegal or punishable.
3. Very little can be done retroactively – the inning is already over. A discovery of batting out of order (BOO) is only actionable during the inning it is occurring. Certainly, if the final out is committed by the improper batter on a time play (and a run or runs scores), then an appeal can be made after the inning is over so as to have the runs removed from the board. However, let's say the batting order is Aiden #12, Brian #22, Colby #32, and Denzel #42... Aiden is skipped, and Brian bats and grounds out, Colby bats and pops out, and now Denzel is up... Sure, the defense can alert us (the umpires) that Aiden got skipped, but there's no retroactive action for us to take, as we are now too far removed from the BOO occurrence with outs recorded. If Brian had reached base, that would be actionable, but because he and Colby were both outs, and Denzel is (now) a proper batter, there's nothing that can be done.

@Matt has a valid question as to where the last two batters were, as that might be a component of an appeal (especially if runs scored during the play). 

19 minutes ago, Matt said:

I think they were arguing 8 was an illegal substitute.

It may have been an unreported substitution action (In this case, ending the DH and the player being batted for (F1) now batting for himself), and then a "simple" BOO. We don't necessarily have to go to Defcon 1, declare it an illegal substitution and kowtow to the visiting team's demands that someone gets called a cheat and sent to the showers.

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, MadMax said:

@Matt

It may have been an unreported substitution action (In this case, ending the DH and the player being batted for (F1) now batting for himself), and then a "simple" BOO. We don't necessarily have to go to Defcon 1, declare it an illegal substitution and kowtow to the visiting team's demands that someone gets called a cheat and sent to the showers.

It may have been #8 (F1) batting for #25 (DH) -- which is just an unreported sub and loss of the DH, and #25 can re-enter.

Or, it could have been #8 batting for #3-- which is an unreported sub and an illegal sub and #8 is removed from the game.

I don't see this as a BOO, in any case (unless there are other actions not described in the OP).

[Tborze]

The penalty for an illegal player is restriction then ejection if he re-enters. (Which we would not need to report in PA)

The appeal process is also different. Discovery must be made before the first pitch to the next batter, so the position of players on defense would be irrelevant. 

If F1 did indeed bat in the 7 hole, I would say he was BOO and the DH would be lost. Once he stepped in the box he has entered the game. 

[Replacematt]

3 hours ago, Tborze said:

The penalty for an illegal player is restriction then ejection if he re-enters. (Which we would not need to report in PA)

The appeal process is also different. Discovery must be made before the first pitch to the next batter, so the position of players on defense would be irrelevant. 

If F1 did indeed bat in the 7 hole, I would say he was BOO and the DH would be lost. Once he stepped in the box he has entered the game. 

If F1 had a DH, this is illegal substitution, because he cannot legally occupy that spot in the order, and illegal substitution supersedes BOO.

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

If F1 had a DH, this is illegal substitution, because he cannot legally occupy that spot in the order, and illegal substitution supersedes BOO.

Agreed.  There's a case or interp on this.  I don't have time to look it up.  Sr. Azul will be along shortly.

[Guest Fatcity]

Found the answer to my own question. 2-36-3d  an illegal substitute is:  

when the player for whom the DH is batting enters the game as a batter or runner in a DIFFERENT POSITION IN THE BATTING ORDER.

Thanks to the umpire who always said " read rule 2, read rule 2."