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Guest Bruce

What's The Call?

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Guest Bruce

Had a once in a lifetime freak play last week in a high school game.

Two outs no one on. Very windy day. High popup on the 1B line, the 1Bman is trying to get under it like 12 feet foul. The batter-runner is at 1B already, standing on the base, as the ball is coming down. The wind blows the ball back fair at the last second, and the fair ball hits the batter-runner on the foot in fair territory as he is standing on the base. The 1Bman is like 8-10 feet away in foul territory having already missed his chance to catch the ball. No other fielder was near the batter-runner with any chance to make a play.

I did not call the batter-runner out because there was nobody near him with a chance to catch the ball, and there was no play for anybody to throw him out at first because he was already at first. But I know it may have been the wrong call. The batter-runner may have to be called out no matter what.

The interpreters here in NJ agreed with my call, including the state interpreter, Craig Yetman. The NCAA rulebook states that if a fair ball hits the batter-runner in fair territory before the ball touches a fielder that the batter-runner is out, so I assume he'd be out under those rules. Not sure about the pro ruling.

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Matt said:

Because for the purposes of this rule, it had not passed an infielder. OBR considers passing to be within the immediate reach of a fielder, and FED considers passing to be beyond a line drawn between all the infielders.

NCAA treats passing the same as OBR, but there's something about the way the rule is written above that just isn't jiving with something on my mind.

The rule you are quoting obviously refers to a ground ball.

If the infield is in and a runner behind the fielders is hit by a ground ball, it's nothing.  The ball does not have to be within the immediate reach of infielder in that case for it to have "passed the fielders." But even if it doesn't "pass a fielder," it's only an out if a fielder in the area had a play. If a hit and run is on and the 2Bman breaks for the bag and the batted ball hits the runner from 1B going to 2B, he is not out. The 2Bman was not there to have a play on the ball.

BTW, the stupidest scoring rule in baseball is giving the batter a hit when his batted ball hits a runner for an out.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, SavoyBG said:

The rule you are quoting obviously refers to a ground ball.

If the infield is in and a runner behind the fielders is hit by a ground ball, it's nothing.  The ball does not have to be within the immediate reach of infielder in that case for it to have "passed the fielders." But even if it doesn't "pass a fielder," it's only an out if a fielder in the area had a play. If a hit and run is on and the 2Bman breaks for the bag and the batted ball hits the runner from 1B going to 2B, he is not out. The 2Bman was not there to have a play on the ball.

BTW, the stupidest scoring rule in baseball is giving the batter a hit when his batted ball hits a runner for an out.

 

 

Nope, it's for any batted ball, as long as it's fair.

In your example, the runner is still out (in OBR.) The "fielder having a play" only applies if the ball has passed an infielder. In FED, it wouldn't be (because it has passed an infielder in their interpretation.)

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10 minutes ago, Matt said:

Nope, it's for any batted ball, as long as it's fair.

In your example, the runner is still out (in OBR.) The "fielder having a play" only applies if the ball has passed an infielder. In FED, it wouldn't be (because it has passed an infielder in their interpretation.)

I've seen my example occur in the major leagues, and the runner was not out.

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5 minutes ago, SavoyBG said:

I've seen my example occur in the major leagues, and the runner was not out.

Do you have an example you can describe or a video link? 

Now, I'm curious. 

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54 minutes ago, Matt said:

Because for the purposes of this rule, it had not passed an infielder. OBR considers passing to be within the immediate reach of a fielder, and FED considers passing to be beyond a line drawn between all the infielders.

NCAA treats passing the same as OBR, but there's something about the way the rule is written above that just isn't jiving with something on my mind.

Yes, the NCAA rule is confusing. It has an exception for thru or bye but their wording doesn’t require it. 

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2 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

A runner is out when:

 

Screen Shot 2019-04-10 at 9.34.32 PM.jpg

The more I think about this, the closer I get to articulating my question with the wording:

Simplifying the rule to: A runner is out if he is hit by a fair batted ball before it has passed all infielders who have a chance to make a play on the ball. I think we all agree this is the way it reads for this condition.

If there is one infielder who can play the ball, the runner is not out if touched by the ball after it has passed that infielder. Simple enough.
If there are multiple infielders who can play the ball, the runner is not out if touched by the ball after it has passed all such infielders. A little more complex, but easily adjudged.

How is this supposed to read if there are no infielders that can play the ball? The ball never passes any infielders that can play it, so by that wording, the runner is out...but if there are no infielders that can make a play on the ball, then if number of infielders=number of infielders passed, is that assumed to be all? That holds true for the above, but...

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On 4/9/2019 at 7:16 PM, Guest Bruce said:

Had a once in a lifetime freak play last week in a high school game.

Two outs no one on. Very windy day. High popup on the 1B line, the 1Bman is trying to get under it like 12 feet foul. The batter-runner is at 1B already, standing on the base, as the ball is coming down. The wind blows the ball back fair at the last second, and the fair ball hits the batter-runner on the foot in fair territory as he is standing on the base. The 1Bman is like 8-10 feet away in foul territory having already missed his chance to catch the ball. No other fielder was near the batter-runner with any chance to make a play.

I did not call the batter-runner out because there was nobody near him with a chance to catch the ball, and there was no play for anybody to throw him out at first because he was already at first. But I know it may have been the wrong call. The batter-runner may have to be called out no matter what.

The interpreters here in NJ agreed with my call, including the state interpreter, Craig Yetman. The NCAA rulebook states that if a fair ball hits the batter-runner in fair territory before the ball touches a fielder that the batter-runner is out, so I assume he'd be out under those rules. Not sure about the pro ruling.

 

 

 

What a unicorn of a play. Wow. 

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2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Do you have an example you can describe or a video link? 

Now, I'm curious. 

I have it myself on a DVD. A friend used to make up a DVD after each MLB season of crazy plays. Mondesi was running with the pitch and was hit by the batted ball. At first they killed it and called him out. Then they got together and changed the call and put him on 2B because the 2Bman was going to second to cover and nobody had a play on the ball.

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3 hours ago, SavoyBG said:

I've seen my example occur in the major leagues, and the runner was not out.

@SavoyBG, how would you rule in this OBR play:

"

Play 5: Runners on first and second, both runners stealing. Batter shows bunt, the first and third basemen move in, and the shortstop moves to cover third. The batter swings at the last minute and hits a ground ball in the direction of the shortstop position. However, the shortstop has moved to cover third base, and no one is in position to field the ball. The ground ball strikes the runner advancing from second base.

Ruling 5: Runner from second is declared out for being struck by a batted ball. The batter-runner is placed at first base. The ball is not considered to have gone through or by an infielder in this play."

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12 hours ago, SavoyBG said:

I'm the OP and I clearly said that it was a high popup. Did you even read the first post? How could a bounding ball hit the batter runner after he was on first base?

 

 

You said “the fair ball hits the batter-runner on the foot”. The only way you could call it fair would be if it hit the ground and bounded fair before it hit the foot. If the pop up hit the runner in flight my semantic NCAA supposition gets weaker in the chicken-egg area. But your clarification of F4s position eliminates any doubt in OBR and NCAA if we treated the B-R as a runner. He’d be out. 

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13 hours ago, SavoyBG said:

F4 was deep in the back of the infield. The ball did not pass him, but he had no play.

He did have a play.  He didn't necessarily have a chance to make the catch, but with the ball in front of him he still has a play on the ball.  Even with B/R standing on first, it doesn't matter - the ball hasn't passed him, he still has a play on the ball after it lands - the ball hitting the B/R as it landed interfered with that.

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59 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You said “the fair ball hits the batter-runner on the foot”. The only way you could call it fair would be if it hit the ground and bounded fair before it hit the foot. 

I disagree.

SECTION 2. The ball becomes dead and base runners return when:
e. A fair ball touches a runner in fair territory before touching any infielder including the pitcher or an umpire and before passing an infielder (other than the pitcher) who has a chance to make a play on the ball. The runner who is touched by the fair ball is out, and no other runner may advance or score, except when forced.
PENALTY for e.—The ball is dead and the runner hit by the batted ball is declared out. The batter is awarded first base with a single. Remaining runners advance if forced.

I think what you're arguing is that it's not a fair ball because it hasn't touched the ground yet.

Fair Ball
SECTION 27. A legally batted ball that settles on or over fair territory (see
7-6-a-e):
d. First touches a player, umpire or any piece of equipment while over fair territory. A batted ball that hits the pitcher's rubber and rebounds untouched to foul territory between first and home or third and home is a foul ball.

According to NCAA rules, a ball that first touches a player ... while over fair territory is a fair ball. The ball in OP's situation first touched the batter-runner's (a player) foot while his foot was over fair territory. It would be difficult for a ball to hit a foot in fair territory while said ball was in foul territory.

It's the same reason R3 leads off in foul territory. If he's hit by a liner and he's standing completely in foul territory, it's a foul ball. If it hits any part of his body that's in fair territory, it's a fair ball (and he's out).

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For the life of me, I can't imagine doing anything other than calling the batter/runner out in this scenario. 

I'm glad it's a "Third World Play" 

Maybe if it's as close as the OP reads, I'd just call it a foul ball. 

 

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Is there any code that specifies the ball must "pass" the fielder in the direction of the outfield fence?  In the OP, it seems like the ball did pass the first baseman, just in the direction of left field coming from foul territory.  If a batted ball can become fair in this direction, what cements this as not "passing" the first baseman and his initial play on the ball?   Nonetheless, this is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't.  

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1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

You said “the fair ball hits the batter-runner on the foot”. The only way you could call it fair would be if it hit the ground and bounded fair before it hit the foot. If the pop up hit the runner in flight my semantic NCAA supposition gets weaker in the chicken-egg area. But your clarification of F4s position eliminates any doubt in OBR and NCAA if we treated the B-R as a runner. He’d be out. 

Apparently you still have not read the original post. Here:

Two outs no one on. Very windy day. High popup on the 1B line, the 1Bman is trying to get under it like 12 feet foul. The batter-runner is at 1B already, standing on the base, as the ball is coming down. The wind blows the ball back fair at the last second, and the fair ball hits the batter-runner on the foot in fair territory as he is standing on the base. The 1Bman is like 8-10 feet away in foul territory having already missed his chance to catch the ball. No other fielder was near the batter-runner with any chance to make a play.

I did not call the batter-runner out because there was nobody near him with a chance to catch the ball, and there was no play for anybody to throw him out at first because he was already at first. But I know it may have been the wrong call. The batter-runner may have to be called out no matter what.

The interpreters here in NJ agreed with my call, including the state interpreter, Craig Yetman. The NCAA rulebook states that if a fair ball hits the batter-runner in fair territory before the ball touches a fielder that the batter-runner is out, so I assume he'd be out under those rules. Not sure about the pro ruling.

 

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On 4/9/2019 at 7:16 PM, Guest Bruce said:

is at 1B already, standing on the base, as the ball is coming down. The wind blows the ball back fair at the last second, and the fair ball hits the batter-runner on the foot in fair territory as he is standing on the base.

Crud, there goes that idea. :-) 

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Well, according to the guys who matter in this case, the interpreters who I deal with here in NJ, I made the correct call. It's not like any of you will ever have this play!

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Just now, SavoyBG said:

Well, according to the guys who matter in this case, the interpreters who I deal with here in NJ, I made the correct call. It's not like any of you will ever have this play!

Yup. That's what matters. 

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17 minutes ago, SavoyBG said:

Apparently you still have not read the original post. Here:

Two outs no one on. Very windy day. High popup on the 1B line, the 1Bman is trying to get under it like 12 feet foul. The batter-runner is at 1B already, standing on the base, as the ball is coming down. The wind blows the ball back above fair territory at the last second, and the fair ball hits the batter-runner on the foot in fair territory as he is standing on the base. The 1Bman is like 8-10 feet away in foul territory having already missed his chance to catch the ball. No other fielder was near the batter-runner with any chance to make a play.

I did not call the batter-runner out because there was nobody near him with a chance to catch the ball, and there was no play for anybody to throw him out at first because he was already at first. But I know it may have been the wrong call. The batter-runner may have to be called out no matter what.

The interpreters here in NJ agreed with my call, including the state interpreter, Craig Yetman. The NCAA rulebook states that if a fair ball hits the batter-runner in fair territory before the ball touches a fielder that the batter-runner is out, so I assume he'd be out under those rules. Not sure about the pro ruling.

 

I revised your post with the appropriate cross out and added bolded.

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