Tagging up on deadball with a throw out that goes out of play

[Guest Kevin Holmes]

We had a situation where we had a runner on 1st base, 1 out. A pop fly was hit to CF. The 1st base runner, blatantly ignoring his base coaches :) , advanced past 2nd base halfway to third when the CF caught the fly ball and threw to 1st base to double up the runner. The throw went out of play when the base runner was nearly at third. Timeout was called when the ball went out of play. After some discussion between umpires and coaches the umpire awarded the runner home at which point the runner advanced to home (without being sent back to tag first base). The umpire made no indication that during the dead ball the runner must return to 1st and then round the bases to advance to home. The defensive team was complaining and the umpire then asked if they wanted to appeal the call. The coach responded yes at which point the defensive team tagged first and the runner was called out. Is this the correct call and if not what is the correct call? -Thanks

[JSam21]

Yes, this was the proper call. We are to award bases based on the position of the runner at the time that the throw was made. It is up to the offense to understand that they must retouch or be subject to being put out on appeal. 

 

Now if the runner would have gone to properly retouch, his base award would have been changed to 3rd base instead of home. 

[johnpatrick]

The umpire should not "ask" if the defense wants to appeal.

[noumpere]

23 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Now if the runner would have gone to properly retouch, his base award would have been changed to 3rd base instead of home. 

Assuming the game was played under OBR AND that the runner went back to first before touching third (I am reading the play as "the runner had not reached third at the time the ball wnet out of play.")  I agree that this is likely since the umpire did not (seem to) accept the verbal appeal.

If the game was played under FED, then the runner cannot legally retouch first and is still subject to being out on appeal.

And, while I agree that " The umpire should not "ask" if the defense wants to appeal. " I think it is acceptable to ask "are you appealing?" or to say "f you are appealing, you need to do so in a proper manner."

[goody14]

Surely this is not the first time this has happened, but first time I have seen it.

I was the umpire for this play! Kevin did a great job of describing the play.

Good to get confirmation on the original call. This was Babe Ruth/Cal Ripken which is modified OBR.

Now let's talk about the final part. In my conversation with the defensive coach he wanted an immediate out for not tagging up. I told him that the award was home, but if he thinks there was a violation he has ways to address this. He then asked if he can appeal, I said he could.

This was coach pitch so before play resumed the pitcher did not have the ball. Since he had indicated to me earlier he wanted to appeal, this is when I "asked" him if he wanted to do that. He said yes so I had the coach give the ball to the player for the appeal.

I honestly don't know how coach pitch leagues/tourneys handle appeals. I am thinking we should re-write our house rules to be dead ball appeals (even with OBR rules) at this level otherwise appeals are goofy with a coach pitcher

Happy to get feedback on if my conversation with the defensive coach was correct.

 

[Mad Mike]

Perhaps Senor Azul can enlighten us; however, as Noumpere stated "If the game was played under FED, then the runner cannot legally retouch first and is still subject to being out on appeal." Isn't OBR the same? If the kid was halfway between 2nd and 3rd when the throw went out of play, then he cannot legally re-touch second and then first because he is beyond the base that was not properly tagged. He certainly could go back and physically re-touch 2nd and 1st; however, it won't save him under "last time by" because he can't legally re-touch when he is beyond the next successive base when the ball is dead.

So, we go this right, but for the wrong reason(s) or improper procedure?

OBR also does not allow dead ball appeals....I realize this was coach pitch, so maybe the rule(s) are more lenient on this though. So, the defensive team would need the umpire to put the ball back in play and then appeal, correct?

Great discussion and a play to bring up. What a cluster!!

[noumpere]

43 minutes ago, goody14 said:

Happy to get feedback on if my conversation with the defensive coach was correct.

 

Especially at coach pitch, this was correct.  Part of our job is instructional as well as just officiating.

[noumpere]

Just now, Mad Mike said:

Perhaps Senor Azul can enlighten us; however, as Noumpere stated "If the game was played under FED, then the runner cannot legally retouch first and is still subject to being out on appeal." Isn't OBR the same? If the kid was halfway between 2nd and 3rd when the throw went out of play, then he cannot legally re-touch second and then first because he is beyond the base that was not properly tagged.

Incorrect under OBR.  The runner must touch the *next base beyond where he is at the time the ball goes out of play" to negate any ability to return.

[JSam21]

Just now, Mad Mike said:

Perhaps Senor Azul can enlighten us; however, as Noumpere stated "If the game was played under FED, then the runner cannot legally retouch first and is still subject to being out on appeal." Isn't OBR the same? If the kid was halfway between 2nd and 3rd when the throw went out of play, then he cannot legally re-touch second and then first because he is beyond the base that was not properly tagged. He certainly could go back and physically re-touch 2nd and 1st; however, it won't save him under "last time by" because he can't legally re-touch when he is beyond the next successive base when the ball is dead.

So, we go this right, but for the wrong reason(s) or improper procedure?

OBR also does not allow dead ball appeals....I realize this was coach pitch, so maybe the rule(s) are more lenient on this though. So, the defensive team would need the umpire to put the ball back in play and then appeal, correct?

Great discussion and a play to bring up. What a cluster!!

OBR allows for the runner to return, even if they are past the next base at the time the ball went out of play because they require the runner to continue to advance after the ball went out of play. If he advanced after the ball went out of play then he could not return. 

[goody14]

7 minutes ago, Mad Mike said:

OBR also does not allow dead ball appeals....I realize this was coach pitch, so maybe the rule(s) are more lenient on this though. So, the defensive team would need the umpire to put the ball back in play and then appeal, correct?

This is how I handled it. I made the coach give the ball to the kid, called play, and he threw it to first (without throwing it out of play again thankfully)

[Gfoley4]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

If the game was played under FED, then the runner cannot legally retouch first and is still subject to being out on appeal.

Just to be clear (and because I'm doing a lot more FED games this year), if this happens in FED, first award 2 bases TOT from where the runner is (third, then home), then change the award to third if the runner goes back and "tags" up? But, this tagup is not valid under the rules, so the defense can still make a valid appeal of first base.

[goody14]

There is an extra clause in FED (8-3-5):

Quote

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. 

I am not sure if he actually has to be running backwards or it is assumed once ball is caught he is a runner returning. If he is between 2nd and 3rd and returning to first, then his award would be 3rd - as I read the above.

But, as you said, FED also dictates you can not be beyond the base missed or re-touched at the moment the ball becomes dead. So he would be subject to appeal.