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Guest OmahaUmp

Runner Returning to a Missed Base

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Guest OmahaUmp

 This has probably be asked before but I would like to get a response with any NFHS/MLB Rule as backup;

Situation: R1 running on the pitch; BR hits to deep RF, fielder makes an over the shoulder catch and throws back to 1st base to appeal R1 leaving 1B too soon but the ball goes into Dead Ball Territory.

A. At the time of the throw R1 is on 2nd; at the time the ball goes OB, R1 is between 2nd and 3rd.  R1 will be awarded home but R1 can go back and touch 1st while the ball is dead because his "next base" is 3rd and he didn't reach 3rd when the ball went OB.  Correct?

B.  Assume R1 is really fast and is on 3rd at the time of the throw from RF  and is between 3rd and home when the ball goes OB.  R1 will still be awarded home and now home base is his "next base" so he can still return and touch 1st base while the ball is dead and then touch 2nd, 3rd, and home.  Correct?

 

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Both generally correct for OBR.  It's touching the base beyond the *current location* *after* the ball becomes dead that matters.  Once R1 retouches, however, the award will be third.

(Above edited because I was so focused on the "retouch" issue, I missed that the OP had the player still advancing to home.)

Both incorrect for FED.  It's touching the base beyond the *one missed / left early* at the time the ball *becomes* dead that matters.  So, since is on or beyond second  at the time the ball becomes dead, R1 cannot legally return to correct his baserunning error.

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Guest OmahaUmp

Wouldn't you assume the first thing that happens once the ball goes OB will be the umpire awarding two bases from time of throw, which in this situation would be home (R1 @ 2nd or 3rd @ TOT)?  Then when R1 returns and touches 1st the umpire has to change his award to 3rd?  As long as the R1 retouches 1st and then proceeds to 2nd (or 3rd) why wouldn't the award be from where R1 reached @ TOT?  I'm not arguing the explanation from Skt004, I just don't understand why award is not from the base @ TOT.

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1 hour ago, Guest OmahaUmp said:

Wouldn't you assume the first thing that happens once the ball goes OB will be the umpire awarding two bases from time of throw, which in this situation would be home (R1 @ 2nd or 3rd @ TOT)?  Then when R1 returns and touches 1st the umpire has to change his award to 3rd?  As long as the R1 retouches 1st and then proceeds to 2nd (or 3rd) why wouldn't the award be from where R1 reached @ TOT?  I'm not arguing the explanation from Skt004, I just don't understand why award is not from the base @ TOT.

Yes, that's what happens.  The ump awards home.  Then if the runner corrects his error the ump then awards third.  That's the interpretation that has been laid out and what is followed, right wrong or indifferent.  

Frankly, I could argue it both ways - in baseball parlance you acquire a base when you pass it, whether you touch it or not...so since the runner acquired second base, he should get two bases from there, even if he does have to correct an error.  That would be the literal "two bases from TOT"

Or, I could say that, since he missed first, he never legally reached first, his two base award should reflect that, and he should get second base.  He gets first base, then second base.

 

My question is about FED...the runner is not allowed to correct his error.   But what if he does?  Do you let him correct the error, award him third instead of home, and then see if the defense appeals?  Or do you stop him, and tell him he can't go back and send him to home - basically telegraphing the Defense to appeal?

 

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This is the thread I thought I was in when I replied in the previous thread.

With Fed, I'm awarding him home when the ball goes OOP. If he goes back and touches 1B, I don't care and he's still trotting around to home. If DC wants to ask why I gave him three bases, I'm telling him it was based on him occupying 2B for the award, not his going back to 1B. If DC can read between the lines, he'll know there's a possible appeal.

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2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

My question is about FED...the runner is not allowed to correct his error.   But what if he does?  Do you let him correct the error, award him third instead of home, and then see if the defense appeals?  Or do you stop him, and tell him he can't go back and send him to home - basically telegraphing the Defense to appeal?

 

1 hour ago, yawetag said:

This is the thread I thought I was in when I replied in the previous thread.

With Fed, I'm awarding him home when the ball goes OOP. If he goes back and touches 1B, I don't care and he's still trotting around to home. If DC wants to ask why I gave him three bases, I'm telling him it was based on him occupying 2B for the award, not his going back to 1B. If DC can read between the lines, he'll know there's a possible appeal.

 

This is how I would handle the situation as well. Since he can't correct his mistake, it doesn't make sense for us to only award him one base. However, we will not prevent him from going back and touching first base because then we're telling EVERYBODY he missed first base. Him going back doesn't nullify his mistake, so we'd still let him score and then let the defense appeal. 

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2 hours ago, Guest OmahaUmp said:

Wouldn't you assume the first thing that happens once the ball goes OB will be the umpire awarding two bases from time of throw, which in this situation would be home (R1 @ 2nd or 3rd @ TOT)?  Then when R1 returns and touches 1st the umpire has to change his award to 3rd?  As long as the R1 retouches 1st and then proceeds to 2nd (or 3rd) why wouldn't the award be from where R1 reached @ TOT?  I'm not arguing the explanation from Skt004, I just don't understand why award is not from the base @ TOT.

(I've only included what I believe to be the relevant portion. A better explanation can be found in the MLBUM)

Rule 5.06(b)(4)(I) Comment:

If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base.

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