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udbrky

Live ball appeal, pitcher balks, can they still appeal?

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R1 leaves early on a fly ball. He reaches 2B. F1 takes the rubber, coach yells to appeal it.

 

F1 drops the ball while on the rubber.

 

F1 starts to deliver and stops.

 

F1 comes set and (lefty) throws to 1B without stepping.

 

F1 doesn't come set and quick pitches

 

Can they still appeal after balks? If so, all balks?

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No, you cannot appeal after a balk. The defensive team has erred* and now cannot appeal any runner at any base. 

This could easily be avoided in high school by opting for a dead ball appeal, which is much easier, faster, and eliminates the opportunity for the defense to mess it up. 

 

*is this the case or is the balk considered a "play or attempted play" for the purpose of this rule? Either way they can no longer appeal, I just can't remember the exact wording. 

This is incorrect. This is correct. 

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2003 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations SITUATION 6: With a runner at second base and two outs, the batter hits a single to right field. The runner misses third base and scores. The defense does not immediately appeal, and the ball is made live. With a right-handed pitcher on the mound, in contact with the pitcher's plate, the pitcher illegally turns his shoulders to check the runner. A balk is called, and the runner is awarded second base. With the ball being dead, the defensive coach asks for an appeal of the runner missing third base. Is the defense allowed to appeal? RULING: No, the pitcher's balk constitutes an illegal pitch and the defense loses the right to appeal the base runner's error. (2-3-1, 8-2-5 Penalty)

The defense must appeal all baserunning infractions before the next legal or illegal pitch…

Official Interpretation:  Rumble:  A “balk is also an illegal pitch,” so a balk would cancel the right of the defense to appeal.

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9 hours ago, udbrky said:

F1 comes set and (lefty) throws to 1B without stepping.

Can they still appeal after balks? If so, all balks?

All balks.  Right from the comment of OBR:  If a pitcher balks when making an appeal, such act shall be a
play.

 

I'm not sure this is a balk, in this specific instance. (Nor am I sure it is not.)

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No step on a pick-off? Unless his back foot comes off the rubber, it's a balk.

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7 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

2003 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations SITUATION 6: With a runner at second base and two outs, the batter hits a single to right field. The runner misses third base and scores. The defense does not immediately appeal, and the ball is made live. With a right-handed pitcher on the mound, in contact with the pitcher's plate, the pitcher illegally turns his shoulders to check the runner. A balk is called, and the runner is awarded second base. With the ball being dead, the defensive coach asks for an appeal of the runner missing third base. Is the defense allowed to appeal? RULING: No, the pitcher's balk constitutes an illegal pitch and the defense loses the right to appeal the base runner's error. (2-3-1, 8-2-5 Penalty)

The defense must appeal all baserunning infractions before the next legal or illegal pitch…

Official Interpretation:  Rumble:  A “balk is also an illegal pitch,” so a balk would cancel the right of the defense to appeal.

Where is the source on this? I'd love a bigger case play book for NFHS. There's a lot of situations, like this, that are missing.

 

Thanks, my friend and I have been debating this the last couple days

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8 hours ago, Stk004 said:

No, you cannot appeal after a balk. The defensive team has erred* and now cannot appeal any runner at any base. 

This could easily be avoided in high school by opting for a dead ball appeal, which is much easier, faster, and eliminates the opportunity for the defense to mess it up. 

 

*is this the case or is the balk considered a "play or attempted play" for the purpose of this rule? Either way they can no longer appeal, I just can't remember the exact wording. 

"Erring" on appeal (OBR/NCAA throwing ball out of play, NCAA missplaying ball with runner advance) does not eliminate the opportunity to appeal in FED.

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1 hour ago, yawetag said:

No step on a pick-off? Unless his back foot comes off the rubber, it's a balk.

Yes, but this wasn't a pick-off.  It was an appeal.  This *might* be one of those times to use the "intent of the pitcher" clause.

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12 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Yes, but this wasn't a pick-off.  It was an appeal.  This *might* be one of those times to use the "intent of the pitcher" clause.

You're right. It's not a pick-off. But the pitcher coming set has three options: pitch, pick-off, or step off. Anything else is a balk.

I'd be interested in your "intent of the pitcher" clause, especially in Fed rules.

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54 minutes ago, yawetag said:

You're right. It's not a pick-off. But the pitcher coming set has three options: pitch, pick-off, or step off. Anything else is a balk.

I'd be interested in your "intent of the pitcher" clause, especially in Fed rules.

A pitcher does not have to disengage to make an appeal. 

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In the hopes of learning something new today, do you have a reference for this?

For the record, I'm referring to a live-ball appeal.

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2018 NCAA rule 8-6b-10) It is not a balk for a pitcher, while in contact with the rubber (does not step back), to throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making an appeal play.

From the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.22, p. 104)—

“It is NOT a balk for the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, to throw to an unoccupied base IF it is for the purpose of making an appeal play. (Note that the pitcher does not have to step back off the rubber to make an appeal play.)

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@Senor Azul, this is the High School part of the forum, and @udbrky specifically mentioned NFHS. NCAA and OBR interps don't mean much when we're talking Fed rules.

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1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

A pitcher does not have to disengage to make an appeal. 

But if they throw from the rubber they have to step. But an MLB pitcher stepped and threw for an appeal and was balked. We remain confused about that one. 

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According to the BRD (§14, "APPEALS: PITCHER THROWS FROM PITCHER'S PLATE"):

FED: No provision. Treat as in NCAA.

Not a balk. That's the ruling despite the fact that 2-29-6 states that an appeal is never a play, so stepping/throwing to an unoccupied base cannot be excused on that ground.

My BRD is from 2015, but unless anyone has something more recent I'll go with that.

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Mr. maven, you are beginning to show mad skills using the BRD. In the 2016 BRD (in the same section) it says that the NCAA ruling is “It is not a balk if the pitcher from the rubber throws to a base for an appeal. (8-6b-10)” This NCAA rule was posted by me yesterday much to Mr. yawetag’s irritation.

Carl Childress explains in the Introduction to his 2016 Baseball Rule Differences that items marked as No Provision means that “neither rules language nor official interpretation exists. Each umpire must decide for himself the proper ruling. Officials encountering unexplored territory generally use as their guide any rule or precedent available from other levels…Occasionally, following “No Provision” you will find the BRD recommendation for the umpire’s proper course; for example, 'Treat as in NCAA.'”

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1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. maven, you are beginning to show mad skills using the BRD. In the 2016 BRD (in the same section) it says that the NCAA ruling is “It is not a balk if the pitcher from the rubber throws to a base for an appeal. (8-6b-10)” This NCAA rule was posted by me yesterday much to Mr. yawetag’s irritation.

Carl Childress explains in the Introduction to his 2016 Baseball Rule Differences that items marked as No Provision means that “neither rules language nor official interpretation exists. Each umpire must decide for himself the proper ruling. Officials encountering unexplored territory generally use as their guide any rule or precedent available from other levels…Occasionally, following “No Provision” you will find the BRD recommendation for the umpire’s proper course; for example, 'Treat as in NCAA.'”

I’m confused. An engaged pitcher can throw to a base for an appeal without stepping? In FED and/or the other codes. 

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So there's "no provision" for Fed. Mr. Childress says himself that as an umpire, I will have to decide the proper ruling, but he suggests I treat it the same as NCAA. Got it, and I'll keep that in mind. Given the discussion and rules/interps posted, I will state that my "no step on an appeal is a balk" is technically correct ("no provision" in Fed), but probably the wrong side of the stick to grab in practice.

7 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

This NCAA rule was posted by me yesterday much to Mr. yawetag’s irritation.

If you had added the BRD's Fed "No provision" line with it, I wouldn't have been "irritated" (your words, not mine); I would have been educated. My point remains that you gave NCAA and OBR rules in a Fed discussion, with no context toward Fed itself.

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Who was arguing that the pitcher does not have to step ahead of his throw to a base for an appeal? Certainly not me--never said any different. All I ever was trying to convey was support for what Mr. JSam21 posted and which Mr. yawetag seemed to dispute—a pitcher does not have to disengage to start an appeal. Of course, once a pitcher is intentionally engaged on the rubber all the pitching rules apply. FED rule 6-1-1 even says this—“The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher’s plate.”

If the NCAA rule and the OBR interpretation are not detailed enough to satisfy you, then your beef is not with me but with them. Neither ruling nor the text from Carl Childress in his BRD saw a need to use the language you seem to require—it is simply understood that the pitcher has to step ahead of any throw from the rubber by rule, even one made on an appeal.

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Maybe we're talking in circles here, but my assumption was the WHOLE appeal part of this thread was based on two aspects of F1's movement: "throwing to an unoccupied base for an appeal" and "not stepping to make the throw for an appeal". And, based on the discussion, BOTH of those aspects were legalized in OBR and NCAA, and Fed was quasi-legalized. Ignoring the confusion around OBR and NCAA being brought into a Fed discussion, it ultimately helped in understanding the "No provision" statement in the BRD.

Are you now saying that the "no step" aspect will still make it a balk, even if it's for an appeal?

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On 2/26/2019 at 11:23 PM, Stk004 said:

No, you cannot appeal after a balk. The defensive team has erred* and now cannot appeal any runner at any base. 

This could easily be avoided in high school by opting for a dead ball appeal, which is much easier, faster, and eliminates the opportunity for the defense to mess it up. 

 

*is this the case or is the balk considered a "play or attempted play" for the purpose of this rule? Either way they can no longer appeal, I just can't remember the exact wording. 

I would like to correct myself here. A balk on an appeal is considered a play, which is why it nullifies future appeal attempts. 

@Jimurray , you're saying this is different in FED? 

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19 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

I would like to correct myself here. A balk on an appeal is considered a play, which is why it nullifies future appeal attempts. 

@Jimurray , you're saying this is different in FED? 

No a balk would nullify future appeals in FED also. Where FED is different is "erring" on appeal. A balk is not an "err" in any code.

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Mr. yawetag, I believe what’s been happening is called talking past each other (a phrase describing the situation where two or more people talk about different subjects, while believing that they are talking about the same thing.) The result is an exchange without any real communication.

The following play is from the 2016 BRD (section 16, p. 29):

R1, R2, B1 doubles. R2 scores and R1 winds up on third. The defense calls time. Next, the coach tells F1 to appeal that R1 missed second. The pitcher steps onto the rubber, and the umpire makes the ball live. Without stepping toward third, the pitcher while on the rubber simply flips the ball to F5. The umpire yells:  “That’s a balk!” Ruling:  The balk is a play, so the appeal is disallowed.

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Thanks, I thought it negated it, but debated it with a friend all week. We couldn't find anything in the case plays, so wanted clarification.

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