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udbrky

Catcher INT, flyout, runner leaves early

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We discussed this in our association meeting last week.

R3, b2 is obstructed by catcher but batter hits flyball to rf for an out. R3 leaves early but scores. We call time and enforce the CI because all runners including the br did not advance one base safely. So when we put him back on 3rd base and the br to 1st does that correct R3's leaving early if the coach would like to then take the results of the play?
Or would R3 still be out upon proper appeal?

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Which infraction?

 

R3 left 3B early.

Catcher interferes with batter on the swing.

Runner scores. We call time and enforce CI since batter and runners did not both advance at least one base.

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22 minutes ago, udbrky said:

Which infraction?

 

R3 left 3B early.

Catcher interferes with batter on the swing.

Runner scores. We call time and enforce CI since batter and runners did not both advance at least one base.

I believe last time by would take precedent here... I’ve got nothing here. So since he was standing on 3rd after you’ve enforced the penalty, he has retouched.

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6 hours ago, udbrky said:

We discussed this in our association meeting last week.

R3, b2 is obstructed by catcher but batter hits flyball to rf for an out. R3 leaves early but scores. We call time and enforce the CI because all runners including the br did not advance one base safely. So when we put him back on 3rd base and the br to 1st does that correct R3's leaving early if the coach would like to then take the results of the play?
Or would R3 still be out upon proper appeal?

Wouldn’t we offer the coach the choice before awarding and returning runners at the HS level. Which would then present a sticky wicket. 

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1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

Wouldn’t we offer the coach the choice before awarding and returning runners at the HS level. Which would then present a sticky wicket. 

Our baseball chair said to award, then present. We had Jim Evans at a Babe Ruth clinic several years ago and he said offense is SOL if they take it and get it reversed. 

 

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8 hours ago, udbrky said:

Our baseball chair said to award, then present. We had Jim Evans at a Babe Ruth clinic several years ago and he said offense is SOL if they take it and get it reversed. 

 

My guess is that JE was *probably* assuming that the choice to take the play was made *before* the runner retouched, and that the runner then never retouched.

 

Unless your baseball chair is saying only to enforce in this specific situation (or anything similar -- to avoid the issue it presents),  I disagree with him.  If you are going to *offer* the choice (as opposed to forcing the coach to know the rules and come forward with his decision to take the play), then just offer it.

 

 

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Carl Childress had the following to say about the option on catcher’s interference in his 2016 BRD (section 306, p. 204):

“Both Evans and Wendelstedt indicate the correct procedure is for the umpire to enforce the penalty for catcher interference, willy-nilly. Then, if the offensive coach requests the option, the ruling will be changed. I believe that’s wrong for amateur umpires, and I am joined in that assessment by senior NCAA Division I umpires Jon Bible and Ken Allen. Simply:  When an option exists, offer it to the coach.”

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12 hours ago, JSam21 said:

I believe last time by would take precedent here... I’ve got nothing here. So since he was standing on 3rd after you’ve enforced the penalty, he has retouched.

Assuming Fed, last time by won't work. You can't return to retouch once you're on or past the next base and the ball becomes dead.

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2018 NFHS Rule 5 SECTION 2 SUSPENSION OF PLAY

ART. 2 . . . When the ball becomes dead:

b. a runner may return to a base he left too soon on a caught fly ball or that was not touched during a live ball;

1. A runner who is on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball became dead, may not return and shall be called out upon proper and successful appeal (8-4-2q).

OBR--The following text is from the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.50 Retouching Bases When Ball is Dead, p. 67) but the same text can be found in the PBUC and the MLBUM.

“When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left too soon after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base. A runner may return to a missed base (or one he has left too soon) when the ball is dead if he has not touched the next base. A runner may, of course, return to any missed base (or one he has left too soon) while the ball is in play unless a following runner has scored. See Approved Rulings (A) and (B) to Official Baseball Rule 5.09(c)(2).”

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Well, except in some very specific situations (ie. tie or one-run game after 7th inning), the coach would be wrong to take the results of the play.  Never (okay, rarely) trade an out for a run when you have the choice.

So, if he doesn't know his stats, and he doesn't know his (FED) rules, he would deserve to have R3 subsequently called out on appeal.  :BD:

On 2/22/2019 at 9:29 PM, Jimurray said:

Wouldn’t we offer the coach the choice before awarding and returning runners at the HS level. Which would then present a sticky wicket. 

It wouldn't matter in high school because the runner can't correct himself anyway. Whatever way you do it, whether the choice is offered or not, the coach will have to understand at least one rule here or he is going to screw himself over.   He'll have to understand he has a choice (in fact, it's better here if he doesn't know this) and/or he'll have to understand his runner can't correct the error.   And, if you award before the choice, then the other coach needs to know he can still appeal.  And then there's the whole matter of the dead ball appeal...and the timing of that appeal (and what constitutes that appeal) in relation to when the OC makes his choice.   (eg. Ump calls time, calls CI, and before announcing OC has a choice, F5 says "he left early" - are you ruling on that before or after you give the coach his choice?) 

In fact, in Pro OBR, awarding and then waiting for the manager to say something protects the manager from himself, in this scenario.   If he knows the rule and decides to take the play, his runner has tagged up.  If he doesn't know he has a choice, the ump (rule) has actually given him the statistically correct move.

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30 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Ump calls time, calls CI, and before announcing OC has a choice, F5 says "he left early" - are you ruling on that before or after you give the coach his choice?

8-2-6-c-1: The dead-ball appeal may be made once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called.

Outside of South Carolina High School League, I'm making the CI award and waiting for that to finish before I even entertain a dead ball appeal. For all I know, R3 runs back, tags 3B, and then tags home. While I know that doesn't eliminate the appeal, DC may not know that. Once everyone's advanced on the CI, I'll take the "Hey! Wait!" in order of how the two coaches say it.

This situation might be the only one in which I can be thankful South Carolina has the "Umpires call missed bases without an appeal" rule. I can call time, rule the CI, let them advance, call R3 out for leaving early (SC rule), then wait for OC to saunter over and ask what happened.

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29 minutes ago, yawetag said:

This situation might be the only one in which I can be thankful South Carolina has the "Umpires call missed bases without an appeal" rule. I can call time, rule the CI, let them advance, call R3 out for leaving early (SC rule), then wait for OC to saunter over and ask what happened

But this only comes into play if the OC has chosen to take the result of the play - whether he asked himself, or was proactively given the choice by the ump.

Assuming the play ends with R3 on the bench, and no appeal during the live ball (and that raises another question to when you kill the play - if defense throws home and then immediately throws to third to appeal runner leaving early, before you kill play, it certainly makes for an easy decision for the offense)...I see two ways this can go...

1. Call Time, Announce CI, enforce CI, wait for either or both coaches to say/do something, address in order

2. Call Time, Announce CI, offer OC the choice...if coach takes the play, see if defense appeals (or call as SC rules allow)

My question is in number 2 - you call time, announce CI, and then start over to OC to tell him he has a choice...before he makes his choice F5 (or DC) says "R3 left early" - are you ruling on that first?  If the OC asks you to rule on that first before making his decision, will you?   That would be significant in a tie game in the eighth or ninth inning.

 

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1 minute ago, beerguy55 said:

But this only comes into play if the OC has chosen to take the result of the play - whether he asked himself, or was proactively given the choice by the ump.

Assuming the play ends with R3 on the bench, and no appeal during the live ball (and that raises another question to when you kill the play - if defense throws home and then immediately throws to third to appeal runner leaving early, before you kill play, it certainly makes for an easy decision for the offense)...I see two ways this can go...

1. Call Time, Announce CI, enforce CI, wait for either or both coaches to say/do something, address in order

2. Call Time, Announce CI, offer OC the choice...if coach takes the play, see if defense appeals (or call as SC rules allow)

My question is in number 2 - you call time, announce CI, and then start over to OC to tell him he has a choice...before he makes his choice F5 (or DC) says "R3 left early" - are you ruling on that first?  If the OC asks you to rule on that first before making his decision, will you?   That would be significant in a tie game in the eighth or ninth inning.

 

We don't go ask the coach what he wants to do. We enforce the CI and then it is up to the OHC to come out and request the result of the play. 

No he doesn't get to test the water before either choosing to accept the result of the play or taking the penalty. 

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26 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

We don't go ask the coach what he wants to do. We enforce the CI and then it is up to the OHC to come out and request the result of the play. 

There seems to be a disconnect here between not only the umpires on this thread, but between associations, trainers, experts, and rule sets.

In practice, outside the pro level, I think I've always seen the umpire offer the choice, be it games I'm watching, playing or coaching - or, at least, if there is inconsistency between which umpires do and which don't I've seen it offered proactively enough to consider it commonplace.

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1 hour ago, yawetag said:

8-2-6-c-1: The dead-ball appeal may be made once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called.

Outside of South Carolina High School League, I'm making the CI award and waiting for that to finish before I even entertain a dead ball appeal. For all I know, R3 runs back, tags 3B, and then tags home.

If you make the CI award, R3 returns to and stays at third (in the OP, which I assume we are still discussing).

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Good point @noumpere. Missed that in thinking it over. So, I'd enforce CI, put BR on 1B and return R3 to third.

@beerguy55, I've always been instructed to enforce CI and wait for OC to say something. All levels of play.

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