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sdix00

Points of Emphasis 2019 - Baserunner's Responsibilities

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I found this slide at https://cbuaump.org/2018-2019-nfhs-baseball-rules-pdf   page #31

I don't understand why this is illegal.    Help?

Edit:  I meant, why is this illegal by rule?   Not necessarily by rationale. 

image.png.8366a1e1f49ad2da464c92437a588776.png

 

NFHS 2019 Baseball Case Book:
8.2.1 SITUATION D: R3 is on third with no outs. R3 attempts to score on a fly ball to F8. F8's throw to F2 is near perfect. R3 sees that the play is going to be close. As F2 stretches for the ball to tag R3, R3 attempts to hurdle F2's outstretched arms as the ball bounces in front of the plate and skips into dead-ball territory. As R3 is in the air, F2's glove catches R3's foot and both lose their balance and tumble to the ground. (a) R3 gets up and proceeds to the dugout or (b) R3 crawls back and touches the plate. RULING: Hurdling the outstretched arms of a fielder is legal. Hurdling or jumping over a fielder who is not lying on the ground is illegal. In (a), the umpire shall call R3 out for missing the plate upon a proper defensive appeal. In (b), R3's run would count.

 

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I think the key is when "illegally executed".   As the above poster states, it's all about safety with common sense. 

If a player jumps over an arm/leg in the base path and laying on the ground due to defensive fielder falling, I have nothing. But if he hurdles the 2nd basemen to avoid a tag, then he's out.

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In the PlayPic above, while it initially appears the runner is just hurdling "outstretched arms", closer looking shows F2 is completely in the baseline. I suppose now, they're trying to indicate that he's actually hurdling over the arms and leg, which will make it illegal.

 

Poor design of the PlayPic. They should have gone with a 45° angle and made it obvious the runner is also hurdling the leg.

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20 minutes ago, sdix00 said:

Edit:  I meant, why is this illegal by rule?   Not necessarily by rationale. 

8-4-2-b2 - Runners are never required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the slide must be legal. (2-32-1, 2) Jumping, hurdling, and leaping are all legal attempts to avoid a fielder as long as the fielder is lying on the ground. Diving over a fielder is illegal.

Emphasis added.

 

Looks like he's hurdling over the catcher to me, but I can see why some wouldn't see that.

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On 2/1/2019 at 11:52 AM, beerguy55 said:

8-4-2-b2 - Runners are never required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the slide must be legal. (2-32-1, 2) Jumping, hurdling, and leaping are all legal attempts to avoid a fielder as long as the fielder is lying on the ground. Diving over a fielder is illegal.

Emphasis added.

 

Looks like he's hurdling over the catcher to me, but I can see why some wouldn't see that.

Hit the nail on the head... you can only leap/hurdle if the fielder is prone on the ground. Any other time and the hurdle is not legal.

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5 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

Hit the nail on the head... you can only leap/hurdle if the fielder is prone on the ground. Any other time and the hurdle is not legal.

You can also hurdle outstretched arms.

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15 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

Hit the nail on the head... you can only leap/hurdle if the fielder is prone on the ground. Any other time and the hurdle is not legal.

That is how I have understood the rule. It is principally a safety issue. In this situation, if you have contact, the question is "is this a legal slide?" The answer here is no it is not. 

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On 2/2/2019 at 11:11 PM, yawetag said:

You can also hurdle outstretched arms.

I agree, I wouldn't call just an arm as "hurdling the fielder". But I think that's what's causing all the angst about the POE picture above - it looks like it is just hurdling outstretched arms. I can see how that would be confusing.

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21 minutes ago, scrounge said:

I agree, I wouldn't call just an arm as "hurdling the fielder". But I think that's what's causing all the angst about the POE picture above - it looks like it is just hurdling outstretched arms. I can see how that would be confusing.

I understand the confusion - for me the difference is the leg also sticking out - I took it that he is also hurdling the shin.  The difference, I think, in the intent of the rule, is between a catcher set up like the picture above, and a catcher (or other fielder) lunging at the runner.

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Let's put it this way and see if we can all agree on it. If he hurdles over any part of the body, besides outstretched arms, it is illegal. Like @beerguy55 points out, it is possible to be hurdling over the arms and another body part at the same time. That is what makes that PlayPic an illegal act.

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52 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Let's put it this way and see if we can all agree on it. If he hurdles over any part of the body, besides outstretched arms, it is illegal. Like @beerguy55 points out, it is possible to be hurdling over the arms and another body part at the same time. That is what makes that PlayPic an illegal act.

Sorry, I cannot agree.  If the fielder falls down in the baseline and a runner jumps over him, I'm not calling him out... even if he jumps the body of a fielder.  

I think the POE is clear if we use common sense and realize the rule is for protection to both runner and fielder.  The whole concept here is to avoid collisions as much as possible.  Forget the picture in my opinion and focus on the idea behind it. 

As beerguy55 shared above (shown below too), if the fielder is on the ground then jumping, hurdling and leaping are all legal attempts. I'd rather the runner jump him than just trod him under foot and the rule supports that logic. 

Notice the rule specifies diving is illegal because the natural motion of a dive is downward.  If a fielder was on the ground and a runner dives into a base, there is going to be a collision.  However, if the runner jumps said fielder, well that jump is going up & away from the fielder so no contact is made.  That's why a leap, hurdle and jump are all legal, they take you up and away from the fielder and avoid contact maintaining safety for both fielder and runner.

Safety is key.  Getting Johnny home safely so that he can play another day.  We're not MLB where millions of dollars and a possible World Series is on the line.  We'll not be having any Chase Utley slides into 2nd base or Pete Rose barrelling over Ray Fosse at home plate in our games! 

Contact, and any action interpreted as attempting to make contact, is grounds for being penalized in NFHS rules.

 

On 2/1/2019 at 2:52 PM, beerguy55 said:

8-4-2-b2 - Runners are never required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the slide must be legal. (2-32-1, 2) Jumping, hurdling, and leaping are all legal attempts to avoid a fielder as long as the fielder is lying on the ground. Diving over a fielder is illegal.

 

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59 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Let's put it this way and see if we can all agree on it. If he hurdles over any part of the body, besides outstretched arms, it is illegal. Like @beerguy55 points out, it is possible to be hurdling over the arms and another body part at the same time. That is what makes that PlayPic an illegal act.

Nope.

Diving: always illegal

Jumping/hurdling: legal if over fielder lying on the ground or over outstretched arms; otherwise, illegal

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Hey, let's be honest ....regardless of all of the above, .... prepare for a large argument after you make the call! :D 

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I guess I didn't realize I needed to put in diving when we were talking about jumping and hurdling...

 

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5 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Hey, let's be honest ....regardless of all of the above, .... prepare for a large argument after you make the call! :D 

You're only going to hear it when you call the runner out for it. Most people look at any jump/hurdle/dive as an athletic move and "part of baseball". Now, you might get a savvy defensive coach who knows the rule, and he's going to ask why you didn't call the jump/hurdle, but that's going to be rare.

My suggestion: on any legal jump/hurdle, you need to follow with a "That's nothing!" and safe signal, similar to a no-call OBS/INT. It shows that you recognize there could have been something, but you didn't see anything illegal.

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1 hour ago, yawetag said:

You're only going to hear it when you call the runner out for it. Most people look at any jump/hurdle/dive as an athletic move and "part of baseball". Now, you might get a savvy defensive coach who knows the rule, and he's going to ask why you didn't call the jump/hurdle, but that's going to be rare.

My suggestion: on any legal jump/hurdle, you need to follow with a "That's nothing!" and safe signal, similar to a no-call OBS/INT. It shows that you recognize there could have been something, but you didn't see anything illegal.

While perfectly explained, and true ........ there are also a handful of coaches who don't understand "That's nothing!" and the safe signal :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

I guess I didn't realize I needed to put in diving when we were talking about jumping and hurdling...

 

You know we love you and there is no 100% right answer on here. :stir   It's all going to be on what we see and how we interpret it.  Hopefully, we'll all be close, but you never know.

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