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Guest BigVic

Bunt to Chop Swing

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Guest BigVic

A batter may come to a bunting stance, then go back to a batting stance and take a full swing.

However, may a batter come to a bunting stance and instead of "tapping" the ball, take a half swing while in the bunting stance?

I see in the little league rules under Rule 2.00 Definition of terms a Bunt is ...tapped slowly.  Later in the in the TEE BALL note it says a "half swing" is not allowed.  This reference is for TEE BALL only.

So my question is that a half swing is not "tapping" the ball, this means that it is not allowed and the batter will be called back and given a strike?

Thanks,

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On 11/15/2018 at 10:10 PM, Jimurray said:

That doesn’t prevent F5 from getting a broken nose. It just punishes the batter for doing it and hopefully not getting F5’s nose. Seems you should have a “come to Jesus” meeting with the coaches. :)

Unfortunately, the laser system that will instantly disintegrate any baseball illegally hit is prohibitively expensive.

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17 hours ago, kylehutson said:

Unfortunately, the laser system that will instantly disintegrate any partner is prohibitively expensive and illegal.

 

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On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 1:57 PM, Richvee said:

We used delayed dead ball. On the off chance batter hits into a DP. Don’t want to take that away from the defense. 

I considered that...but decided it was more about preventing the practice than punishing.

In two years we have not had to invoke the rule.

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On 11/9/2018 at 7:25 PM, Richvee said:

You don't have to agree, but it's more than "local".  When I was doing these levels it was rare to come across any league that allowed it.

From the USABL rules (which is a bit more than "local" ) 

35. No slap bunt/slashing is allowed in any 46/60 division. A "slap or slash bunt" is defined as the act of showing bunt and swinging at the pitch instead. A slap or slash bunt automatically be ruled a strike and a dead ball whether the batter makes contact with the ball or not.

There's plenty "local fools" rules...I don't think this is one of them.

I'll be honest. I've been in youth ball for 30 years and had never even heard of the USABL - had to look it up. Seems to be pretty local to NJ. I've dealt with hundreds of rec and local leagues throughout the west, midwest and south and seen only a few leagues outlaw it.

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On 11/10/2018 at 7:35 PM, Lou B said:

OK, time to get in trouble!

How many times have you actually seen someone injured by this scenario?

I've been involved with youth baseball for about 50 years (LL, PONY, Dixie, AAU, Legion and Travel Ball) and have yet to see an injury from this type of play.  

When I managed I told the corners not to charge just because a batter squares to bunt.  Don't charge until the pitcher releases the ball - not enough time for the batter to pull the bag back and take a full swing.

I have spent over 30 years on youth baseball fields, including almost 20 years as a youth baseball baseball photographer where I spent 12 months a year standing on youth fields 10-12 hours a day often 5-6 days a week in all seasons. 10's of thousands of youth games at all levels. Never seen an injury from the slug bunt. Never. Any rules to outlaw it are simply solutions in search of a problem.

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6 hours ago, roothog66 said:

I'll be honest. I've been in youth ball for 30 years and had never even heard of the USABL - had to look it up. Seems to be pretty local to NJ. I've dealt with hundreds of rec and local leagues throughout the west, midwest and south and seen only a few leagues outlaw it.

We can quibble about the definition of local, and we can debate the merit or need for the rule til the cows come home. My point is when when Little League International is voting on adding this as a rule, regardless of the outcome of the vote, it tells me the rule is being used with a decent amount of frequency in areas all around the country. 

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On 11/19/2018 at 3:13 PM, kylehutson said:

Unfortunately, the laser system that will instantly disintegrate any baseball illegally hit is prohibitively expensive.

Cheapskate.

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On 12/28/2018 at 6:41 PM, Richvee said:

We can quibble about the definition of local, and we can debate the merit or need for the rule til the cows come home. My point is when when Little League International is voting on adding this as a rule, regardless of the outcome of the vote, it tells me the rule is being used with a decent amount of frequency in areas all around the country. 

Not sure I get the logical connection here.

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On 12/28/2018 at 11:52 AM, roothog66 said:

I have spent over 30 years on youth baseball fields, including almost 20 years as a youth baseball baseball photographer where I spent 12 months a year standing on youth fields 10-12 hours a day often 5-6 days a week in all seasons. 10's of thousands of youth games at all levels. Never seen an injury from the slug bunt. Never. Any rules to outlaw it are simply solutions in search of a problem.

I have seen it, and it's something you shouldn't need to see once before wanting to avoid it.   Anecdotal evidence only takes you so far - you've never seen something until you do.  Everything is unprecedented until it happens.   It's a devastating event when it does happen, and the only question is whether or not the action that caused the event is necessary to the integrity of the game. 

Besides, I'm willing to bet  you've seen some near misses in your 50 years - I know I've seen dozens.  Don't dismiss the near misses - they are simply matters of luck, and represent what will inevitably happen.   This is why Health and Safety practitioners record not only incidents, but also near misses - because they are leading indicators and predictors.

I don't have a problem with a PROPERLY executed bunt/chop - what I find is many at the younger ages, especially at rec levels, end up doing a full swing, not a chop.   Removing this from the younger/rec levels eliminates absolutely nothing from the integrity or enjoyment of the game, but does eliminate an absolutely unnecessary risk, no matter how small you think it is.

You're making the same arguments that were made in opposition to batting helmets, and bulldozing catchers, and seat belts...And are currently being made to keep tackle football for youths, in spite of all that has been learned about concussions.  This is more about resistance to change than anything else.

 

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Naperville Little League, which is the largest LL organization in the state of Illinois, also bans fake bunting and then swinging away, which they've defined as a "slash bunt" for local play.  However they do clarify that "in District Tournament play and above the 'slash bunt' is legal."

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1 hour ago, Rock Bottom said:

Naperville Little League, which is the largest LL organization in the state of Illinois, also bans fake bunting and then swinging away, which they've defined as a "slash bunt" for local play.  However they do clarify that "in District Tournament play and above the 'slash bunt' is legal."

Does Naperville Little League move the mound back to 60' to also protect the pitcher from any swinging away, whether fake bunt or not? I would think the if they are going to protect a charging F5 they would also protect my F1 who is already as close as a charging infielder and is probably in a more awkward fielding position than the at ready infielders?

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15 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Does Naperville Little League move the mound back to 60' to also protect the pitcher from any swinging away, whether fake bunt or not? I would think the if they are going to protect a charging F5 they would also protect my F1 who is already as close as a charging infielder and is probably in a more awkward fielding position than the at ready infielders?

One's necessary to the game, the other is not.   Besides, the charging fielder is often closer than the pitcher (many times less than 30 feet away), and, at that age, is less prepared and equipped to protect himself (because he is almost blindly charging, expecting to run and pick up a slow moving or stationary ball) than the pitcher, who typically doesn't have the exaggerated follow throw older pitchers develop and is (usually) in position to field a hit by the time the batter makes contact.

At older ages - NCAA and up (maybe HS too) they are not only more equipped to handle the play (better reaction and better skill) they also actually understand the risks...not to mention the likelihood that the batter will actually perform an actual chop slap, and not a full swing, which they likely wouldn't have time to accomplish anyway.   Not to mention that you just don't see this play (very rarely) at the college and pro levels. 

 

 So, if it's a play almost exclusive to the younger levels, and organically disappears as the players get older anyway, why would we even encourage or allow it at the development levels?  (this is more an observation than anything - in softball the slap is an integral part of the game at college and international levels and I still think it should be banned at the younger/rec ages)

 

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On 1/2/2019 at 10:00 PM, Jimurray said:

Does Naperville Little League move the mound back to 60' to also protect the pitcher from any swinging away, whether fake bunt or not? I would think the if they are going to protect a charging F5 they would also protect my F1 who is already as close as a charging infielder and is probably in a more awkward fielding position than the at ready infielders?

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just reporting what the largest LL org in Illinois does, because some acted like this prohibition was unusual.

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