Bunt to Chop Swing

[Guest BigVic]

A batter may come to a bunting stance, then go back to a batting stance and take a full swing.

However, may a batter come to a bunting stance and instead of "tapping" the ball, take a half swing while in the bunting stance?

I see in the little league rules under Rule 2.00 Definition of terms a Bunt is ...tapped slowly.  Later in the in the TEE BALL note it says a "half swing" is not allowed.  This reference is for TEE BALL only.

So my question is that a half swing is not "tapping" the ball, this means that it is not allowed and the batter will be called back and given a strike?

Thanks,

[Jimurray]

18 minutes ago, Guest BigVic said:

A batter may come to a bunting stance, then go back to a batting stance and take a full swing.

However, may a batter come to a bunting stance and instead of "tapping" the ball, take a half swing while in the bunting stance?

I see in the little league rules under Rule 2.00 Definition of terms a Bunt is ...tapped slowly.  Later in the in the TEE BALL note it says a "half swing" is not allowed.  This reference is for TEE BALL only.

So my question is that a half swing is not "tapping" the ball, this means that it is not allowed and the batter will be called back and given a strike?

Thanks,

It's not allowed in TEE Ball. It is allowed otherwise unless local fools have made up some additional rules.

"Baseball: A BUNT is a batted ball not swung at, but intentionally met with the bat and tapped slowly. The mere holding of the bat in the strike zone is not
an attempted bunt. (Tee Ball: Bunts are not permitted. Batters are not permitted to take a half-swing. If the umpire feels the batter is taking a half-swing, the batter
may be called back to swing again.)"

[Rich Ives]

19 minutes ago, Guest BigVic said:

A batter may come to a bunting stance, then go back to a batting stance and take a full swing.

However, may a batter come to a bunting stance and instead of "tapping" the ball, take a half swing while in the bunting stance?

I see in the little league rules under Rule 2.00 Definition of terms a Bunt is ...tapped slowly.  Later in the in the TEE BALL note it says a "half swing" is not allowed.  This reference is for TEE BALL only.

So my question is that a half swing is not "tapping" the ball, this means that it is not allowed and the batter will be called back and given a strike?

Thanks,

Only in LL Tee Ball. It's a legit attempt to hit the ball everywhere else and it's not a bunt.

[Senor Azul]

Apparently, there has been at least one attempt to ban slash bunting by Little League before. Here’s one such attempt reported on by the Little League Insider blog dated April 8, 2014.

The three biggest ones failed. There were proposals to remove any pitcher who hit three batters in a game from the mound. That motion failed. There was another vote to eliminate "slashing" or fake bunting and swinging away. That motion also failed.
 

Some people are going to be upset about slashing. They think it shouldn't be allowed. I understand they're kids, but it's still baseball. If you're going to crash hard on the show of bunt, you're gonna have the possibility of being beat. Bunting is already going by the wayside. This would make it even harder. They made a good call.

[Rich Ives]

15 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Apparently, there has been at least one attempt to ban slash bunting by Little League before.

It has been proposed at least four times at the LL Congresses. it has failed every time by significant margins.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Apparently, there has been at least one attempt to ban slash bunting by Little League before. Here’s one such attempt reported on by the Little League Insider blog dated April 8, 2014.

The three biggest ones failed. There were proposals to remove any pitcher who hit three batters in a game from the mound. That motion failed. There was another vote to eliminate "slashing" or fake bunting and swinging away. That motion also failed.
 

Some people are going to be upset about slashing. They think it shouldn't be allowed. I understand they're kids, but it's still baseball. If you're going to crash hard on the show of bunt, you're gonna have the possibility of being beat. Bunting is already going by the wayside. This would make it even harder. They made a good call.

 

I've had the same argument in softball for different reasons - as the slap as an integral part of that game...and the sac bunt is still (not on any team I coached) a huge part of the game.

I don't have a problem with slash bunts or proper slaps...I do have a problem with young players coming in when it looks like the batter is gonna sac bunt, and then he/she comes back and does a full swing (not a slash/slap) and drives the ball down the poor kid's left nostril, as he/she is now 30 feet away, not 60.  I always felt it should be banned at the rec/community levels - as the batters don't know enough to do it properly, and the fielders don't know enough to field the positions properly.  (or, make face masks mandatory)

This is an act that has been banned in any adult fastpitch or baseball league I have ever played in.

When I played Little League as a teenager (Big League, or whatever) where it was "allowed", those players who did it found the next pitch in their ear hole.

 

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

When I played Little League as a teenager (Big League, or whatever) where it was "allowed", those players who did it found the next pitch in their ear hole.

 

Way to go champ. Throw at someone's head

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

Way to go champ. Throw at someone's head

Don't blame me.  I didn't pitch.

[Richvee]

The "no slashing" rule is widely used in my area on the small diamond. I'd assume it is in other areas aswell,hence it coming up to vote at LLI so often.  I don't have a problem with the rule at the rec level, but tournament time....it's time to play real baseball....(well...as real as 60' baseball can get.)

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, Richvee said:

The "no slashing" rule is widely used in my area on the small diamond. I'd assume it is in other areas aswell,hence it coming up to vote at LLI so often.  I don't have a problem with the rule at the rec level, but tournament time....it's time to play real baseball....(well...as real as 60' baseball can get.)

Do the local fools in your area move the pitcher back or prohibit hits up the middle?

[Richvee]

18 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Do the local fools in your area move the pitcher back or prohibit hits up the middle?

You don't have to agree, but it's more than "local".  When I was doing these levels it was rare to come across any league that allowed it.

From the USABL rules (which is a bit more than "local" ) 

35. No slap bunt/slashing is allowed in any 46/60 division. A "slap or slash bunt" is defined as the act of showing bunt and swinging at the pitch instead. A slap or slash bunt automatically be ruled a strike and a dead ball whether the batter makes contact with the ball or not.

There's plenty "local fools" rules...I don't think this is one of them.

[Jimurray]

42 minutes ago, Richvee said:

You don't have to agree, but it's more than "local".  When I was doing these levels it was rare to come across any league that allowed it.

From the USABL rules (which is a bit more than "local" ) 

35. No slap bunt/slashing is allowed in any 46/60 division. A "slap or slash bunt" is defined as the act of showing bunt and swinging at the pitch instead. A slap or slash bunt automatically be ruled a strike and a dead ball whether the batter makes contact with the ball or not.

There's plenty "local fools" rules...I don't think this is one of them.

Well if that is a good intentioned rule what are they doing to protect a pitcher that’s 40’ away. Seems face shields and heart strike protection should be required for the corners and pitcher if the fools were thinking clearly. Or draw a 46 foot arc that no fielder can cross until a batted ball. 

[Richvee]

9 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Well if that is a good intentioned rule what are they doing to protect a pitcher that’s 40’ away. Seems face shields and heart strike protection should be required for the corners and pitcher if the fools were thinking clearly. Or draw a 46 foot arc that no fielder can cross until a batted ball. 

I get it. All I'm saying is it's a more popular rule than a lot of local fools rules. This one has legs around the country.  

[beerguy55]

21 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Well if that is a good intentioned rule what are they doing to protect a pitcher that’s 40’ away. Seems face shields and heart strike protection should be required for the corners and pitcher if the fools were thinking clearly. Or draw a 46 foot arc that no fielder can cross until a batted ball. 

Call me a fool if you want - At the rec levels and/or younger kids I'd make face masks mandatory for the corners and pitchers, and some leagues have passed such rules for the smaller field.   (or, as a compromise, drastically increase the education level so parents can make more informed decisions about their kids).  I made the decision for my kid.   And, yes, I would ban the fake bunt/swing at that level.

In the situation I'm talking about you have a rec league where there is a varied level of skill and basic athletic ability, plus varied size.   You can have a 12 year old batter, who is big for his age, facing a 10 year old third baseman, who is small for his age.  On top of that, the batter is skilled, may even be good enough, or almost good enough, to play club ball, and the third baseman is playing his fifth game in his life.  And then you have parents and coaches who don't really know what they're doing, and don't know enough about the game to understand what the risk really is.  The one coach is playing to win, the other coach is just getting his kids familiar with their positions.

And all that little inexperienced third baseman knows is at the last practice his coach told him when he sees the batter square to bunt he needs to move in so he can pick up the ball and throw it to first - and that coach knows that because that's what the league's "introduction to coaching" seminar taught him.  And that batter is just doing what his coach told him to do, but doesn't yet understand the difference between a slap and a swing, and is not aware of the consequences of his actions.

Any dismissal of an attempt to protect those kids at the rec level is irresponsible.  It's no different than these knuckle draggers who still insist kids learn tackle football at five years old, because it's "real football".  

[Lou B]

OK, time to get in trouble!

How many times have you actually seen someone injured by this scenario?

I've been involved with youth baseball for about 50 years (LL, PONY, Dixie, AAU, Legion and Travel Ball) and have yet to see an injury from this type of play.  

When I managed I told the corners not to charge just because a batter squares to bunt.  Don't charge until the pitcher releases the ball - not enough time for the batter to pull the bag back and take a full swing.

[beerguy55]

On 11/10/2018 at 7:35 PM, Lou B said:

OK, time to get in trouble!

How many times have you actually seen someone injured by this scenario?

I've been involved with youth baseball for about 50 years (LL, PONY, Dixie, AAU, Legion and Travel Ball) and have yet to see an injury from this type of play.  

When I managed I told the corners not to charge just because a batter squares to bunt.  Don't charge until the pitcher releases the ball - not enough time for the batter to pull the bag back and take a full swing.

Do you need to see it once to do something?  Do you need to see it more than once?

I've seen it once, and that's enough.  (and for the record, I held my opinion before the incident occurred - and it happened in a game I was not coaching, but watching)

Your instruction is fine  - but not all kids listen or get it right away...and less experienced coaches don't know better.   I taught my kids to creep, not charge - that at least keeps them in a defending position...the "charge" assumes they will need to go to the ball, rather than the possibility of the ball coming to them.

[Lou B]

Ever seen a kid break his ankle sliding into a base, I have.  Why aren't breakaway bases mandatory in all youth leagues?

Ever seen a kid take a pitch to the face and break his nose, I have.  Why aren't facemasks mandatory in all youth leagues?

Ever seen a kid standing in the on-deck circle get hit by a foul ball, I have.  Why aren't on-deck circles prohibited in all youth leagues?I

etc,etc,etc...

 

[Sut'n Blue]

 

Cal Ripken added a rule against fake/slash bunt in 2016. Batter is out. I think it is a good rule for most of the reasons Beerguy points out.

 

 

 

 

[beerguy55]

22 hours ago, Lou B said:

Ever seen a kid break his ankle sliding into a base, I have.  Why aren't breakaway bases mandatory in all youth leagues?

Ever seen a kid take a pitch to the face and break his nose, I have.  Why aren't facemasks mandatory in all youth leagues?

Ever seen a kid standing in the on-deck circle get hit by a foul ball, I have.  Why aren't on-deck circles prohibited in all youth leagues?I

etc,etc,etc...

 

There are two factors to consider - what is the degree of injury that could happen (and its likelihood)...and, is modifying the rule going to change the game to any significant degree.  (combined with how much the change is estimated to reduce the risk - going from 10% to 9% might be not worthwhile, going from 20% to 1% might be worth discussing)

Many youth leagues do make face masks attached to batter helmets mandatory, especially in fast pitch.   

Many leagues encourage, or mandate, the on deck batter stand in the circle behind the batter, regardless of where the bench is.   Any umpire who forbids it is a dinosaur.

The breakaway base issue is an economic one, and is difficult to enforce without reducing the number of facilities that can host games - especially at the rec level.   Where it can be done, it is in many cases.

Having said that, a broken ankle is a far cry from total reconstruction of a face, or brain damage, or death.  Why do you think LL forbids head first slides - it's to reduce the chance of a broken neck.   Is the rule 100% as written...no, but that's not the goal.  Minimize risk, not eliminate.

I'm not trying to put the kids in a bubble - I'm trying to reduce risk where the risk has no necessity.

 

As to your overall question - why aren't they doing it?  Stubbornness, a blind resistance to change, an archaic attitude about what is "tough", money, "tradition", etc, etc, blah blah blah.

Same discussion is happening in football - despite all the evidence to the effect of concussions on kids before their skull is fully developed people still insist on letting and demanding five year olds play tackle football.   The top two passing leaders in NFL history didn't play tackle football until they were teenagers.  Three Super Bowl rings between them (one against each other).  And one of them has a younger brother with two more rings who had the same restriction.  And those two brothers had a dad who played in the NFL.   But, we need to toughen those kids up, and flag football isn't real football, and you're ruining the game, and, and, and.

The fact that you're asking the question assumes that the general position those leagues hold is "right", simply because of the fact that none of them are changing, so it must be right.

 

Once the kids get into their teenage years, get a little more skilled and athletic, and understand not only the game, but their bodies, then they can play like the big boys.

We had the same resistance with batting helmets.  And hockey helmets.  And hockey face masks for youths.  And running over the catcher.  

Just because it's always been done that way isn't a defense to keep doing it.

[umpstu]

On 11/9/2018 at 11:05 AM, beerguy55 said:

 

I've had the same argument in softball for different reasons - as the slap as an integral part of that game...and the sac bunt is still (not on any team I coached) a huge part of the game.

I don't have a problem with slash bunts or proper slaps...I do have a problem with young players coming in when it looks like the batter is gonna sac bunt, and then he/she comes back and does a full swing (not a slash/slap) and drives the ball down the poor kid's left nostril, as he/she is now 30 feet away, not 60.  I always felt it should be banned at the rec/community levels - as the batters don't know enough to do it properly, and the fielders don't know enough to field the positions properly.  (or, make face masks mandatory)

This is an act that has been banned in any adult fastpitch or baseball league I have ever played in.

When I played Little League as a teenager (Big League, or whatever) where it was "allowed", those players who did it found the next pitch in their ear hole.

 

Was 12 years old and playing pickup game with a bunch of older players and was cheating in for a bunt.  Guy had squared around and instead of bunting hit a line drive which hit me squarely under my left eye.  After that I never wanted a line drive or hard hit ground ball hit towards me.  Also could never crowd the plate again.  In younger kid game I do believe it should be banned.  

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Two years ago I was asked to assume the duty of UIC for our small town rec leagues.  After prayerful consideration I agreed to do it on the condition that I be allowed to remove/replace any of their local rules, as I saw fit.

Some of these local rules were, others regularly put umpires behind the 8-ball.

When I was finished with the re-write only 2 of the local rules remained.

One was the rules I kept was the rule against showing bunt, then swinging away. 

Ball is dead, batter is out, regardless is ball is fair, foul or missed.  This only applies up to 12u is rec league.

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Two years ago I was asked to assume the duty of UIC for our small town rec leagues.  After prayerful consideration I agreed to do it on the condition that I be allowed to remove/replace any of their local rules, as I saw fit.

Some of these local rules were, others regularly put umpires behind the 8-ball.

When I was finished with the re-write only 2 of the local rules remained.

One was the rules I kept was the rule against showing bunt, then swinging away. 

Ball is dead, batter is out, regardless is ball is fair, foul or missed.  This only applies up to 12u is rec league.

 

That doesn’t prevent F5 from getting a broken nose. It just punishes the batter for doing it and hopefully not getting F5’s nose. Seems you should have a “come to Jesus” meeting with the coaches.

[beerguy55]

11 hours ago, Jimurray said:

That doesn’t prevent F5 from getting a broken nose. It just punishes the batter for doing it and hopefully not getting F5’s nose. 

Isn't that true of every rule and law?

 

[noumpere]

13 hours ago, Jimurray said:

That doesn’t prevent F5 from getting a broken nose. It just punishes the batter for doing it and hopefully not getting F5’s nose. Seems you should have a “come to Jesus” meeting with the coaches.

It doesn't prevent it -- but it greatly reduces the chances.  If a batter know he will be out for attempting this, then far fewer batters will attempt it and the number of injuries will decrease accordingly.  (The rate per attempt will be unchanged.)

Whether this is good or bad for the game, and whether the injury rate is such that it needs to be addressed are different issues.

[Richvee]

16 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Two years ago I was asked to assume the duty of UIC for our small town rec leagues.  After prayerful consideration I agreed to do it on the condition that I be allowed to remove/replace any of their local rules, as I saw fit.

Some of these local rules were, others regularly put umpires behind the 8-ball.

When I was finished with the re-write only 2 of the local rules remained.

One was the rules I kept was the rule against showing bunt, then swinging away. 

Ball is dead, batter is out, regardless is ball is fair, foul or missed.  This only applies up to 12u is rec league.

 

We used delayed dead ball. On the off chance batter hits into a DP. Don’t want to take that away from the defense. 

[LRZ]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

It doesn't prevent it -- but it greatly reduces the chances.  If a batter know he will be out for attempting this, then far fewer batters will attempt it and the number of injuries will decrease accordingly.  (The rate per attempt will be unchanged.)

And coaches are unlikely to coach it, knowing the consequence.