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Jimurray

Accidental force allowed or accidental appeal not allowed

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Made up sit inspired by the Vanover sit a few years ago and one of our HS crew's rule kick last season. Bottom of last inning, tie game, bases loaded, 2 out. Base hit up the middle where F8 sees his only chance is to charge, scoop, and throw to 2B for a possible force. But he doesn't get the glove on the ball and it goes through his legs and he turns and scrambles after it but realizes when he gets it that it's too late. Meanwhile, R1 seeing it go thru along with the rest of the team starts cheering and peels off before 2B to join the scrum on the field. So F8, seeing the scrum and not aware R1 did not advance and none of his teamates on defence, assuming defeat with the ball thru,  asking for the ball,  dejectedly jogs in with the ball and kicks 2B on the way in. Is that a live ball out with no run scored?

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That is not an appeal... I have an out.

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I would not give an out, as F8 did not make an unmistakable appeal.

If F8 asks to appeal, I would tell him that he needs to touch 2nd base and say what he is appealing. If he says that he is appealing R1's failure to touch 2nd base, and I did not see R1 touch 2nd, I would declare R1 out, with no run scoring.  

If F8 does not ask for an appeal, the game is over and the home team wins. A putout must be an intentional act by a fielder to retire a runner, kicking the base is not an intentional act to retire the runner, so I would not recognize the "forceout" unless F8 appeals to me. 

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1 hour ago, ilyazhito said:

I would not give an out, as F8 did not make an unmistakable appeal.

If F8 asks to appeal, I would tell him that he needs to touch 2nd base and say what he is appealing. If he says that he is appealing R1's failure to touch 2nd base, and I did not see R1 touch 2nd, I would declare R1 out, with no run scoring.  

If F8 does not ask for an appeal, the game is over and the home team wins. A putout must be an intentional act by a fielder to retire a runner, kicking the base is not an intentional act to retire the runner, so I would not recognize the "forceout" unless F8 appeals to me. 

All three codes recognize accidental force outs. But is this a live ball putout sit or an appeal sit. 

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When he "peeled off", did he run past 2nd base? That could make a difference.

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19 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

When he "peeled off", did he run past 2nd base? That could make a difference.

In my made up OP I envisioned R1 just turning in to the infield prior to 2B. 

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Isn't this just another version of Merkle's Boner?  I thought that was adjudicated as "out for abandonment, but not a force out; so need an appeal to upgrade"  I know it's gone back and forth a few times, and I'm without my reference books now.

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11 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Isn't this just another version of Merkle's Boner?  I thought that was adjudicated as "out for abandonment, but not a force out; so need an appeal to upgrade"  I know it's gone back and forth a few times, and I'm without my reference books now.

In the Merkle play was a deliberate act by the fielder.  Don't know the basis for the out. At least recently an abandoned effort in a force situation is still a force.

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SO - everyone on the field, offense, defense, fans, think the game is over. Some amount of time has elapsed. Why are you still there watching? 

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1 minute ago, Rich Ives said:

SO - everyone on the field, offense, defense, fans, think the game is over. Some amount of time has elapsed. Why are you still there watching? 

Dinner isn't ready yet...

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In July 2013 the Lansing Lugnuts had apparently won a game with a walk-off single up the middle. Unfortunately, their runner at first base did not run to second base. Instead he turned into the infield as Mr. Jimurray imagines in his play. Meanwhile, the center fielder  had scooped up the ball and thrown it to second base. The infielder stood on the bag and tried to attract the attention of an umpire. Eventually the runner was ruled out on a force thus negating the winning run. Here’s a link to video of the play for your viewing pleasure--

 

https://deadspin.com/minor-leaguer-hits-walk-off-single-his-team-loses-game-656822487

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Just now, Senor Azul said:

In July 2013 the Lansing Lugnuts had apparently won a game with a walk-off single up the middle. Unfortunately, their runner at first base did not run to second base. Instead he turned into the infield as Mr. Jimurray imagines in his play. Meanwhile, the center fielder  had scooped up the ball and thrown it to second base. The infielder stood on the bag and tried to attract the attention of an umpire. Eventually the runner was ruled out on a force thus negating the winning run. Here’s a link to video of the play for your viewing pleasure--

 

https://deadspin.com/minor-leaguer-hits-walk-off-single-his-team-loses-game-656822487

N O T  T H E  S A M E  P L A Y.

Cleanly fielded.  Noticed right away. Two fielders involved who knew what they were doing.  Clear attempt at the force. No chasing a ball that went through the fielder.  No defeated jog to the infield.  No dumb luck involved at all.

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So dumb luck takes the force off?

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1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

SO - everyone on the field, offense, defense, fans, think the game is over. Some amount of time has elapsed. Why are you still there watching? 

In 2 man I would be in C and about to rule on the play at 2B. When the ball went thru I would be there pondering an abandonment call when I notice the fielder coming in to give me the ball. While we don't want to telegraph an appeal there is still stuff to watch on this play.

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This is from J/R.  Don't know if it's still valid; requires an appeal, not an "accidental force":

 

R3, R1, game tied at 2-2, bottom of the ninth inning, 2 outs. Base hit.
R3 touches home plate as the apparent winning run and the batter-runner
touches first, but R1 goes to join in the celebration at home plate without
advancing to (or near) second base: technically, R1 is out for
abandonment, but this is not a force out, and the run can score. If the
defense were to appeal that R1 had not touched second, there would be a
force out, and no run. Hence, the umpire should not declare an out until
the defense appeals the missed base.

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2 hours ago, noumpere said:

This is from J/R.  Don't know if it's still valid; requires an appeal, not an "accidental force":

 

R3, R1, game tied at 2-2, bottom of the ninth inning, 2 outs. Base hit.
R3 touches home plate as the apparent winning run and the batter-runner
touches first, but R1 goes to join in the celebration at home plate without
advancing to (or near) second base: technically, R1 is out for
abandonment, but this is not a force out, and the run can score. If the
defense were to appeal that R1 had not touched second, there would be a
force out, and no run. Hence, the umpire should not declare an out until
the defense appeals the missed base.

So in my OP my pondering abandonment should remain as such. But what does J/R men by "(or near)" and what would that change? Also in the Lugnut game was that a live ball force out or an appeal out? 

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14 hours ago, Jimurray said:

So in my OP my pondering abandonment should remain as such. But what does J/R men by "(or near)" and what would that change? Also in the Lugnut game was that a live ball force out or an appeal out? 

I think the "or near" just means that the umpire would call abandonment -- if the runner was close, then no abandonment, but still the possibility of an appeal.

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23 hours ago, Jimurray said:

In 2 man I would be in C and about to rule on the play at 2B. When the ball went thru I would be there pondering an abandonment call when I notice the fielder coming in to give me the ball. While we don't want to telegraph an appeal there is still stuff to watch on this play.

Hanging around pondering is sending a signal to the defense.  They think it's over - don't tell them it isn't.

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23 hours ago, maven said:

So dumb luck takes the force off?

At this stage of the lack of action - probably.

If a fielder catches a fly ball to end the game/inning and trips over 2B on the way in and drops the ball is it then not a catch because it wasn't a voluntary release?

 

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38 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Hanging around pondering is sending a signal to the defense.  They think it's over - don't tell them it isn't.

While you don't want to telegraph an appeal sit the umpires do have to see certain things. The PU can't walk off in NCAA and OBR if the Batter is dancing with his teammates. The Lugnuts umpires probably started leaving too soon. In my made up OP if I start leaving, thinking that there will be no touch of 2B and as F8 gets close someone on his team yells to touch 2B and he does I would rather be there to see that.

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4 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The Lugnuts umpires probably started leaving too soon. In my made up OP if I start leaving, thinking that there will be no touch of 2B and as F8 gets close someone on his team yells to touch 2B and he does I would rather be there to see that.

With the Lugnuts F8 threw ti ball to F4.   There was no "F8 getting close"  involved.

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On 11/7/2018 at 1:44 PM, noumpere said:

This is from J/R.  Don't know if it's still valid; requires an appeal, not an "accidental force":

 

R3, R1, game tied at 2-2, bottom of the ninth inning, 2 outs. Base hit.
R3 touches home plate as the apparent winning run and the batter-runner
touches first, but R1 goes to join in the celebration at home plate without
advancing to (or near) second base: technically, R1 is out for
abandonment, but this is not a force out, and the run can score. If the
defense were to appeal that R1 had not touched second, there would be a
force out, and no run. Hence, the umpire should not declare an out until
the defense appeals the missed base.

I hate everything about this ruling.

This rule effectively tells the umpire to ignore the abandonment rule in this one scenario, to the benefit of the offense.

This is so much cleaner if the umpire just calls abandonment.  Why wouldn't he?  He would make this call if the runner ran into right field and started doing cartwheels in the previous 17 half innings..."obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base"

Abandonment should be classed a force out when it's a forced runner (as should leaving the base path to avoid a tag)...why wouldn't it be?    The forced runner made the third out before reaching the base to which he was forced....to me, this is what "forced out" means.

The fundamental question for me is when does the play become dead?   Once the play is dead the defense couldn't complete a force, and, also, the runner couldn't be called for abandonment.   At that point, they would have to appeal.  So, when does it die?  When the (apparent) winning run scores?  When B/R reaches first?  Both (like on a BB?) When the defense leaves the field?  When the umps get tired of waiting and leave?   IMO, on a hit the play should be live until either all forced bases are touched or all the defense leaves fair territory.   Until then it's a force, not an appeal.   R1 didn't "miss" the base...he never reached it.   But, I really don't care if my opinion is supported...draw a line SOMEWHERE.

If there is a clear ruling on when a play dies on an apparent game ending run, then we know if it should be an appeal or a force.   Which then leads to...so, if the play is dead, that means the base runner can't correct his error?   ie. he's in the middle of right field and realizes he forgot to touch the base...can he go touch it before someone on the defense completes their appeal?
Again - so much easier if the ump just called abandonment.

 

IMO, even if you're ignoring abandonment, the OP is a force out, accidental or not.  It's not an appeal.   

  
 

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2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I hate everything about this ruling.

This rule effectively tells the umpire to ignore the abandonment rule in this one scenario, to the benefit of the offense.

This is so much cleaner if the umpire just calls abandonment.  Why wouldn't he?  He would make this call if the runner ran into right field and started doing cartwheels in the previous 17 half innings..."obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base"

Abandonment should be classed a force out when it's a forced runner (as should leaving the base path to avoid a tag)...why wouldn't it be?    The forced runner made the third out before reaching the base to which he was forced....to me, this is what "forced out" means.

The fundamental question for me is when does the play become dead?   Once the play is dead the defense couldn't complete a force, and, also, the runner couldn't be called for abandonment.   At that point, they would have to appeal.  So, when does it die?  When the (apparent) winning run scores?  When B/R reaches first?  Both (like on a BB?) When the defense leaves the field?  When the umps get tired of waiting and leave?   IMO, on a hit the play should be live until either all forced bases are touched or all the defense leaves fair territory.   Until then it's a force, not an appeal.   R1 didn't "miss" the base...he never reached it.   But, I really don't care if my opinion is supported...draw a line SOMEWHERE.

If there is a clear ruling on when a play dies on an apparent game ending run, then we know if it should be an appeal or a force.   Which then leads to...so, if the play is dead, that means the base runner can't correct his error?   ie. he's in the middle of right field and realizes he forgot to touch the base...can he go touch it before someone on the defense completes their appeal?
Again - so much easier if the ump just called abandonment.

 

IMO, even if you're ignoring abandonment, the OP is a force out, accidental or not.  It's not an appeal.   

  
 

A strict semantic read of the rules would indicate that you can only appeal a missed base or one left early. So the putout of a runner before the base would not be covered under the appeal rule. FED and NCAA do reference appeal when a runner fails to advance and touch his base when required but I think that might be sloppy writing.

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