Balk for taking glove off with ball inside

[Guest Gary]

Runner on first. Pitcher on rubber in stretch position with ball in glove. Before coming set and without calling time, pitcher takes glove off with ball inside, puts glove between knees and uses both hands to tuck Jersey in pants? Balk?

[Richvee]

All while still engaged with the rubber?  Yeah...Unless it's real young rec level and you want to tell him he needs to step off the rubber to do that. 

[Rich Ives]

13 minutes ago, Richvee said:

All while still engaged with the rubber?  Yeah...Unless it's real young rec level and you want to tell him he needs to step off the rubber to do that. 

Not sure it was described correctly.   "in stretch position" and "before coming set"  doesn't compute.  Most pitchers fiddle around a bit  (shuffle feet, shrug, twtich, etc. ) wile technically engaged but before starting to take signs,

[Richvee]

4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Not sure it was described correctly.   "in stretch position" and "before coming set"  doesn't compute.  Most pitchers fiddle around a bit  (shuffle feet, shrug, twtich, etc. ) wile technically engaged but before starting to take signs,

I get that. But taking off the glove, putting it between his knees,  tuck in the shirt, goes a bit beyond "fiddling".  Wouldn't you agree?  

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I get that. But taking off the glove, putting it between his knees,  tuck in the shirt, goes a bit beyond "fiddling".  Wouldn't you agree?  

What OBR rule would you cite? 

[Richvee]

10 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

What OBR rule would you cite? 

5.07 a (2). Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side. From this position he shall go to his set position.....without interruption and in one continuous motion 

[Jimurray]

23 minutes ago, Richvee said:

5.07 a (2). Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side. From this position he shall go to his set position.....without interruption and in one continuous motion 

That's a "do not do that" edited to add, unless you are referring to the second clause.

 

[Richvee]

OP says this all happened with F1 in contact with the rubber. 

F1 looking in for a sign. He has to bring his hands together and his free leg closer to the rubber to remove the glove from his hand stick the glove between his legs. That's a start/ stop, or at the very least separating the hands after bringing them together and not throwing. 

[Jimurray]

26 minutes ago, Richvee said:

OP says this all happened with F1 in contact with the rubber. 

F1 looking in for a sign. He has to bring his hands together and his free leg closer to the rubber to remove the glove from his hand stick the glove between his legs. That's a start/ stop, or at the very least separating the hands after bringing them together and not throwing. 

So if you have him coming set it would then be a violation of "6.02(a) (10) The pitcher, after coming to a legal pitching position, removes one hand from the ball other than in an actual
pitch, or in throwing to a base;"

[Senor Azul]

When the pitcher intentionally touches (engages) the pitching rubber with his pivot foot, he is, by rule, a pitcher; when his feet are not engaged to the rubber, he is simply another of nine fielders. This is important because the special rules for pitchers only apply when he is engaged to the rubber and "technically" a pitcher. When the pitcher disengages, these restrictions no longer apply. Also note, he must have the ball in hand or glove to engage the rubber (or straddle it), or he has balked. In other words, it's a balk if the pitcher engages or straddles the rubber without the ball in hand or glove.

Pitchers are normally taught to keep the ball in their hand, but having it in the glove is allowed. If the ball is in their hand, it must be at their side or behind them. So, as our guest Gary said in his scenario, the “pitcher takes glove off with ball inside, puts glove between knees and uses both hands to tuck jersey in pants.” If pitchers must have possession of the ball when they are in-contact with the rubber, does having the ball between your knees meet that requirement? I say no it does not—therefore it’s a balk.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

So if you have him coming set it would then be a violation of "6.02(a) (10) The pitcher, after coming to a legal pitching position, removes one hand from the ball other than in an actual
pitch, or in throwing to a base;"

Maybe he didn't come set. But he certainly brought his hands together while moving the front leg back and then separated the hands. 

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Maybe he didn't come set. But he certainly brought his hands together while moving the front leg back and then separated the hands. 

I would lean toward, time, don’t do that, step off and start again. 

[Richvee]

31 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I would lean toward, time, don’t do that, step off and start again. 

I'm with you at lower levels. High school and up , and probably tournament ball, I think I'm grabbing the balk. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

When the pitcher intentionally touches (engages) the pitching rubber with his pivot foot, he is, by rule, a pitcher; when his feet are not engaged to the rubber, he is simply another of nine fielders. This is important because the special rules for pitchers only apply when he is engaged to the rubber and "technically" a pitcher. When the pitcher disengages, these restrictions no longer apply. Also note, he must have the ball in hand or glove to engage the rubber (or straddle it), or he has balked. In other words, it's a balk if the pitcher engages or straddles the rubber without the ball in hand or glove.

Pitchers are normally taught to keep the ball in their hand, but having it in the glove is allowed. If the ball is in their hand, it must be at their side or behind them. So, as our guest Gary said in his scenario, the “pitcher takes glove off with ball inside, puts glove between knees and uses both hands to tuck jersey in pants.” If pitchers must have possession of the ball when they are in-contact with the rubber, does having the ball between your knees meet that requirement? I say no it does not—therefore it’s a balk.

Just to be clear the rule does not require the ball to be in either the hand or the glove. It just requires possession: "6.02(a)(9) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate....". But I have no problem with you concluding a lack of possession. I do wonder where you get this sentence, "If the ball is in their hand, it must be at their side or behind them." The OBR rule does not specify which hand should be at his side and which hand has to have the ball. Does Wendelstedt expound on this?

[Rich Ives]

4 hours ago, Richvee said:

I get that. But taking off the glove, putting it between his knees,  tuck in the shirt, goes a bit beyond "fiddling".  Wouldn't you agree?  

OTOH it isn't exactly faking out any runners.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

When the pitcher intentionally touches (engages) the pitching rubber with his pivot foot, he is, by rule, a pitcher; when his feet are not engaged to the rubber, he is simply another of nine fielders. This is important because the special rules for pitchers only apply when he is engaged to the rubber and "technically" a pitcher. When the pitcher disengages, these restrictions no longer apply. Also note, he must have the ball in hand or glove to engage the rubber (or straddle it), or he has balked. In other words, it's a balk if the pitcher engages or straddles the rubber without the ball in hand or glove.

Pitchers are normally taught to keep the ball in their hand, but having it in the glove is allowed. If the ball is in their hand, it must be at their side or behind them. So, as our guest Gary said in his scenario, the “pitcher takes glove off with ball inside, puts glove between knees and uses both hands to tuck jersey in pants.” If pitchers must have possession of the ball when they are in-contact with the rubber, does having the ball between your knees meet that requirement? I say no it does not—therefore it’s a balk.

So if the pitcher is scuffing the dirt just in front of the rubber, as they often do, he is balking because he didn't disengage properly after he touched it during the scuff. Right?  Or do you just ignore that?

 

[Rich Ives]

What if an umpire told him to tuck in the shirt? And don't pretend that doesn't happen.

[Richvee]

24 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

OTOH it isn't exactly faking out any runners.

I'll grant you that. Neither is dropping the ball, going to the mouth on the rubber, or swinging the arm while looking in for a sign pre set ( FED only). Still balks. 

[Richvee]

25 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

So if the pitcher is scuffing the dirt just in front of the rubber, as they often do, he is balking because he didn't disengage properly after he touched it during the scuff. Right?  Or do you just ignore that?

 

This is one thing FED makes clear   

" pitching regulations begin when the pitcher INTENTIONALLY engages the rubber. Skuffing around, walking by and stepping on it  kicking dirt in front would not be considered intentionally engaging. 

[MadMax]

1 minute ago, Rich Ives said:

What if an umpire told him to tuck in the shirt? 

Happens quite often. And, as umpires, we cannot put or compel a pitcher into a Balk call or situation. The same can be said regarding the Hybrid stance, as an example. If I’m about to make the ball live (call/point “Play!”), and I’ve got a F1 staring back at me in the Hybrid stance, I should not, indeed cannot, make the ball Live until F1 is in a legal stance. It would be improper of me to make the ball Live only to immediately yell “Balk! Illegal stance! Gotcha!”.

A similar, typical thing happens with amateurs. The pitcher hastily, absent-mindedly toes the rubber. With ball in either hand, he stamps his foot a few times, making a new trench for his foot. He then adjusts the brim of his cap. Then he acknowledges which middle infielder he’s “got” on a come-backer, by raising his pitching arm back towards 2B and giving a point or waggle. Then he rolls his shoulders, settles in, and looks in towards his catcher. All during this, R1 is still taking his batting gloves off or putting his oven-mitt sliding glove on, talking with his 1BC, standing atop 1B, while the next batter hasn’t even gotten into the box yet!

Where is there an act of deceiving the Runner in there???

So yeah, there may be, somewhere in there, an umpire (whether PU or BU) quietly telling F1 to tuck his shirt in. And, that kid doesn’t think to “legally disengage” so as to comply. 

[Richvee]

25 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

What if an umpire told him to tuck in the shirt? And don't pretend that doesn't happen.

While he's on the rubber in a pre set looking in for a sign??? I sure hope not.  And in that case we've probably got an umpire who isn't real familiar with the intricacies of the balk rule   

[Rich Ives]

23 hours ago, Richvee said:

I'll grant you that. Neither is dropping the ball, going to the mouth on the rubber, or swinging the arm while looking in for a sign pre set ( FED only). Still balks. 

Not a  balk in OBR

 

The pitcher shall not:
(1) While in the 18-foot circle surrounding the pitcher’s
plate, touch the ball after touching his mouth or lips, or
touch his mouth or lips while he is in contact with the
pitcher’s plate. The pitcher must clearly wipe the fingers
of his pitching hand dry before touching the ball or the
pitcher’s plate.
EXCEPTION: Provided it is agreed to by both managers,
the umpire prior to the start of a game played in cold
weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on his hand.
PENALTY: For violation of this part of this rule the umpires
shall immediately remove the ball from play and issue a
warning to the pitcher. Any subsequent violation shall be
called a ball. However, if the pitch is made and a batter
reaches first base on a hit, an error, a hit batsman or otherwise,
and no other runner is put out before advancing at
least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to
the violation. Repeat offenders shall be subject to a fine by
the League President

[Richvee]

Perhaps I should have been redundant and typed FED ONLY twice......or  used larger text and bolded FED Only for you.