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Throwing the bat


beerguy55
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So, I have run across a lot of umpires, especially at the younger levels, who will threaten to, and have, called a batter out for throwing their bat.

And, I have never run across any rule set, even at a  local league-level, organizationally-specific mandate, that dictates this penalty.   The penalty is always an ejection, and warning is usually discretionary.

Do we think that these umpires believe that batter out is the rule?

Or is it a non-sanctioned, unwritten compromise as an alternative to ejecting an eight, nine, ten year old kid?  Especially at the non-competitive levels?

Have you ever threatened a coach with calling a player out, even knowing it's an empty threat, in an attempt to get a player to stop throwing their bat, hoping you don't get to the last resort of ejection?

Just curious to the insights of experienced umps to why so many umps do it - I would say this is the one myth that I have experienced the most, as far as incorrect rules coming from the umpire.

This past summer I was helping a new coach - and one of his players was told by the umpire they'd be called out if they tossed the bat again.  I told the coach he can't do that, but that he would have an interesting choice...because the umpire CAN eject the player.  So, do you want to argue to get the out overturned at the risk of getting your player ejected?  Luckily he never had to make it.  Myself, I'd let my player be ejected...and, in fact, let them know that is exactly what can happen if they throw the bat.

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1) I think most of the lower-level umpires do think that's the rule.

2) It *is* codified in the rec league I assign for, and it's precisely for the reason you state - tossing a rec-league player (who is just learning the rules and mechanics of the game) doesn't seem to be fair. Just calling him or her out seems to get across the point ("you can't do that") without the OMG-factor of an ejection. Note that unsportsmanlike conduct, such as doing so on purpose, can still earn an ejection.

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40 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

1) I think most of the lower-level umpires do think that's the rule.

2) It *is* codified in the rec league I assign for, and it's precisely for the reason you state - tossing a rec-league player (who is just learning the rules and mechanics of the game) doesn't seem to be fair. Just calling him or her out seems to get across the point ("you can't do that") without the OMG-factor of an ejection. Note that unsportsmanlike conduct, such as doing so on purpose, can still earn an ejection.

Agreed @kylehutson. In my hometown, youth leagues also had a codified rule to just call an out and eliminate the shock value from ejecting a kid who likely just doesn't have a great handle on the game.

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3 hours ago, grk17 said:

Agreed @kylehutson. In my hometown, youth leagues also had a codified rule to just call an out and eliminate the shock value from ejecting a kid who likely just doesn't have a great handle on the game.

hahaha...I get it..:rollinglaugh:

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Throwing the bat should not, in my opinion, he an out by making a local rule for it.

If a batter throws the bat then when the play is over warn the batter and also warn the manager that if the player throws the bat again then he/she will be ejected.

At that point it's the manager's call if he/she wants to remove the player and not risk the ejection.

Again, just My opinion.

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In the same rec league I'm talking about, if they remove the player, that is effectively an ejection. Batting the entire lineup is mandatory.

There's a difference between a rec-level skills development league and competitive teams.

You have your opinion, I have mine. ...and I'm OK with them being different.

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18 hours ago, Lou B said:

Throwing the bat should not, in my opinion, he an out by making a local rule for it.

If a batter throws the bat then when the play is over warn the batter and also warn the manager that if the player throws the bat again then he/she will be ejected.

At that point it's the manager's call if he/she wants to remove the player and not risk the ejection.

Again, just My opinion.

Eight year olds?  Tee ball?  Non-competitive ball?  One warning?

I don't necessarily disagree in principle, but there might be a middle ground in some cases.   There's the balance between safety of the kid on deck, the catcher/umpire, etc...and still letting these kids learn the game and have fun.  Keeping in mind that the incidence of injury is actually low.  I've personally seen dozens, if not hundreds of bats thrown by people aged 8 to 38, and not a one hit anyone - whereas I have seen injuries caused by bats legally dropped at the catcher's feet.  So, flinging the bat through the air is dangerous, but reacting to it needs some perspective.

Based on experience, most of these kids aren't "throwing" the bat - they're letting go of it in the follow through - "omg I hit the ball!  I gotta run!" - the first point of confusion is the kid doesn't understand because he's pretty sure he didn't throw the bat anywhere - he just let go and ran.

 

War story alert - when I played I held the bat very loosely, and my bottom hand only had two fingers on the bat.  My ring finger was on the knob.  And my pinky was off the bat entirely.  I was prone to losing the bat when fooled on low outside pitches, and it would happen 3-4 times a season.  One game it happened on consecutive pitches - both times the bat ended up in shallow right field.  On the second one, the ump said "What the Hell are you doing?!"...and I got the message - choked up and shortened my swing for the rest of the day.

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8 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

On the second one, the ump said "What the Hell are you doing?!"...and I got the message - choked up and shortened my swing for the rest of the day.

I can just picture your response being "I once saw Manny Machado do it in a ballgame and said 'hey, I can do that.' But I wanted to try and do it better than he did. He only got the bat to the third baseman."

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For LL minors and under, our local rule is that the first throw is a light warning. The second time, if it doesn't hit anyone, they get another warning. The third time, or if they hit the catcher or umpire the coach is presented with the choice of sitting the player while batting or letting the player be ejected. 

Honestly, I've never gotten to that point, but if I had a coach choose the ejection, he'd be gone and the assistant would get to make the choice. 

Had a player let go of the bat on the backswing and somehow the knob of the bat went thru the fence and then was stopped by the barrel. Directly at the parents in the bleachers, a couple people almost soiled themselves. 

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LL minors game, the handle of a thrown bat went straight back horizontally and into the eye opening of the catchers mask. Freak occurence, but the catcher took a nasty hit to the bridge of the nose. A good bit of blood and he developed a pretty big knot. It looked bad and considering our recent focus on concussions, it was a bad outcome.

Ever since I've been pretty firm on "warn, then sit" any player that I deem dangerous.

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22 hours ago, kylehutson said:

In the same rec league I'm talking about, if they remove the player, that is effectively an ejection. Batting the entire lineup is mandatory.

 

So if a kid stars throwing up all over the place (nosebleed, the runs, whatever) and Mom takes him home that counts as an ejection?  

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3 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

So if a kid stars throwing up all over the place (nosebleed, the runs, whatever) and Mom takes him home that counts as an ejection?  

Your case: the kid no longer *wants* to play (his choice)

My case: the kid *can no longer* play (not his choice).

 

But in either case, the kid isn't playing that game, and tomorrow is a new day - they're all the same.

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27 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

Your case: the kid no longer *wants* to play (his choice)

My case: the kid *can no longer* play (not his choice).

 

But in either case, the kid isn't playing that game, and tomorrow is a new day - they're all the same.

Nope - mine were he is no longer *able* to play.  Anyone counting that as an ejection deserves derision.

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My comment was obviously not for T-Ball or even non-competitive minors.  Those are instructional divisions and normally, at least around here, have the managers/coaches acting as umpires.  They should handle a thrown bat as a teaching opportunity.

Once you get to competitive minors and above (divisions that have assigned umpires) that's when my opinion on warnings/ejections apply (warn the player and the manager and at that point it's up to the manager to remove the player of risk ejection).  Again, just My opinion.

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On 10/15/2018 at 3:31 PM, beerguy55 said:

 

And, I have never run across any rule set, even at a  local league-level, organizationally-specific mandate, that dictates this penalty. 

Top Gun Baseball's rule set for 8U's has this penalty.  

Now, you have run across such a rule set.  LOL

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I liked our League's rule: the Umpire has the option to (1) warn (2) call him out or (3) eject. This allows him to judge the player, the infraction, or the frequency. So, if you can tell that the kid's working on it, or if he just not interested in trying, you can judge accordingly. Very seldom have we had to eject; they usually figure it out.

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  • 3 months later...

There is no paragraph in the rules that says "The batter is out when.......he throws the bat."

You might make a case if the batter's actions interfered with a fielder, but that's rare.

Now the guy who gets hit the most is the plate ump, and you can warn, then eject, based on safety.  I have seen a batter throw a bat like a boomerang that almost went over the fence and drop into the stands.  That's dangerous!

Give the manager a chance to instruct.  But if you have a repeat offender, give him some extra time in the batting cage to practice!  Ejection will facilitate that option.

Mike

Vegas_Ump

 

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19 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

There is no paragraph in the rules that says "The batter is out when.......he throws the bat."

You might make a case if the batter's actions interfered with a fielder, but that's rare.

Now the guy who gets hit the most is the plate ump, and you can warn, then eject, based on safety.  I have seen a batter throw a bat like a boomerang that almost went over the fence and drop into the stands.  That's dangerous!

Give the manager a chance to instruct.  But if you have a repeat offender, give him some extra time in the batting cage to practice!  Ejection will facilitate that option.

Mike

Vegas_Ump

 

Good approach.  First player I ever had to dump in high school was because he threw the bat - 4 times - hitting the catcher above the shin guards twice and myself in the hip another time.  I caught the HC between innings with an informal warning the second time, a formal warning after the third time, and finally an ejection after the fourth.  Each time I addressed the safety issue we were facing.

Now, the batter did reach first on the play involving the fourth throw.  But, there is no rule requiring an out.  I allowed the sub for the ejected player, just as in any other case.  I even allowed the coach to make it look like a simple substitution without causing any unnecessary confrontations.  BUT, made it clear it was an ejection.

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Andy Konyar, who was the Umpire-In-Chief for all of Little League for more than 20 years, was asked about throwing bats. Here’s what he said:

“Since this topic isn’t explicitly covered by the rulebook, it falls within the boundaries of Rule 9.01(c) – the umpire gets to rule rule. That being said, umpires don’t get to make up reasons to call a batter out, even under 9.01(c). The reasons why a batter may be called out are listed in the book, and this isn’t one of them. So calling the batter out for throwing a bat isn’t allowed.

“At the same time, this is behavior that we want to discourage. In an extreme case, a batter could seriously hurt someone if he/she is careless with the bat.

“The first time a particular batter lets a bat go flying, warn the batter. If the same batter repeats the offense, go to the coach, and give the coach two options: the coach can either bench the player for the remainder of the game, or else you will eject the player.

“An ejection will carry a mandatory one-game suspension, so most coaches would be willing to go along with the ‘benching.’ Either way, the player won’t be throwing the bat a third time during the game, and will be getting a strong message that he/she should change his/her ways in the future. But this is a per-player thing--if Billy gets warned, you don’t then take Richie out of the game the first time he throws a bat--Richie gets his own warning.”

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6 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Andy Konyar, who was the Umpire-In-Chief for all of Little League for more than 20 years, was asked about throwing bats. Here’s what he said:

“Since this topic isn’t explicitly covered by the rulebook, it falls within the boundaries of Rule 9.01(c) – the umpire gets to rule rule. That being said, umpires don’t get to make up reasons to call a batter out, even under 9.01(c). The reasons why a batter may be called out are listed in the book, and this isn’t one of them. So calling the batter out for throwing a bat isn’t allowed.

Well, it would seem that there have been significantly more than a handful of umpires in Little League who did not get Mr. Konyar’s memo, because in my experience and casual research, this is where most of these fabricated calls are made.

This advice rings true, not only with batters and outs, but also with runners and various antics (helmets, etc.), players and their “choice” language, F3’s and where they stand, and also pitchers and balks (e.g. can’t call a Balk during a dead ball). If an Ejection is warranted, and is ultimately required, then do so. Otherwise, use other means (talks, warnings, etc.) that are certainly at our disposal. We can’t just make up a call because we’re the umpire. 

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20 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

“Since this topic isn’t explicitly covered by the rulebook, it falls within the boundaries of Rule 9.01(c) – the umpire gets to rule rule. That being said, umpires don’t get to make up reasons to call a batter out, even under 9.01(c). The reasons why a batter may be called out are listed in the book, and this isn’t one of them. So calling the batter out for throwing a bat isn’t allowed.

Let me preface this with: I don't disagree with his "don't call the batter out" statement.

BUT, he's talking in circles here. "It's not in the rule book, so the umpire gets to decide what to do; but he can't call the batter out, because those are already listed in the rule book."

Using that logic, the following statements can also be made (not necessarily on throwing a bat):

  • The reasons players may be ejected are listed in the book, and this isn't one of them. So ejecting the batter isn't allowed.
  • The reasons runners may be awarded bases are listed in the book, and this isn't one of them. So awarding bases isn't allowed.
  • The reasons pitchers are called for balks are listed in the book, and this isn't one of them. So calling a balk isn't allowed.

The sole purpose of 9.01c is for an umpire to rule on something not covered in the rule book. And if the Little League UIC of 2+ decades can't put a damn rule in the rule book to cover this particular situation - which occurs more often than many of the rules - then there's something inherently wrong with Little League's rule process.

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How do we define "throwing the bat"? 

Could you classify a bat flip as a throw, what about tossing the bat back to the dugout after ball 4? Does is need to be malicious? Do we think a 7 year old is looking to take out the catcher in a coach pitch game? 

This predominantly happens during a stage when the players are just learning how to play the game. I wouldn't expect the B/R to be called out in a T-Ball game for running up the 3B line, so why call them out for this?

If they throw the bat and it doesn't hit anyone, I'll ask them to try to not to throw the bat, because I don't want either the catcher or myself to get hurt and I don't think they want to hurt the umpire or the catcher. It could be a safety thing, but it wasn't. If they do hit the catcher or myself, they get a warning, if it happens again, the coach will sit them on the bench and will work with them to not throw the bat. 

I had one kid that I was told would never be able to NOT throw the bat. So for practice one day, I had him swing the bat, hold it for 2 seconds and then set it on the ground. He repeated this 50 times. He never threw the bat again. YMMV. 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Mister B said:

How do we define "throwing the bat"? 

Could you classify a bat flip as a throw, what about tossing the bat back to the dugout after ball 4? Does is need to be malicious? Do we think a 7 year old is looking to take out the catcher in a coach pitch game? 

This predominantly happens during a stage when the players are just learning how to play the game. I wouldn't expect the B/R to be called out in a T-Ball game for running up the 3B line, so why call them out for this?

If they throw the bat and it doesn't hit anyone, I'll ask them to try to not to throw the bat, because I don't want either the catcher or myself to get hurt and I don't think they want to hurt the umpire or the catcher. It could be a safety thing, but it wasn't. If they do hit the catcher or myself, they get a warning, if it happens again, the coach will sit them on the bench and will work with them to not throw the bat. 

I had one kid that I was told would never be able to NOT throw the bat. So for practice one day, I had him swing the bat, hold it for 2 seconds and then set it on the ground. He repeated this 50 times. He never threw the bat again. YMMV. 

 

 

If it's uncontrolled or malicious, that's a throw. There may be other "I know it when I see it cases". I think this thread came to a general consensus pretty similar to what you did. 

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Mr. Biscuit, as a high-school aged player you should know that FED takes bat safety seriously and it isn’t just “uncontrolled or malicious” that is taken into account.

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 3.3.1 SITUATION CC:  After hitting a line drive toward F5, B1 releases the bat, which strikes F2 or the umpire. The act was judged by the umpire to be (a) intentional or (b) unintentional. RULING:  In (a) and (b), this is a delayed dead-ball situation. In (a), the offender will be ejected from the game. If his fair hit ball is a base hit, he will be replaced with a substitute runner. In (b), the umpire will warn the coach of that player’s team that the next player on that team to violate the rule shall be ejected fro the game.

3.3.1 SITUATION LL:  With Team B at bat (a) B1 receives ball four and on his way to first base, B1 carelessly flips the bat toward his bench, almost hitting the on-deck batter, or (b) after hitting a ground ball to F5, B1 flips the bat behind him as he begins his advance to first base and the bat strikes F2, or (c) F1, while backing up home plate, picks up a bat and tosses it out of the way, but in doing so almost hits the plate umpire. RULING:  In (a), (b) and (c), the umpire shall issue a team warning to the head coach of the player committing the infraction. (3-3-1c)

FED Official Interpretation:  Rumble:  If a batter throws his bat toward a pitch, that constitutes a carelessly thrown bat with all attendant penalties.

And here’s a note from the 2016 BRD—The bat need not touch anyone for the umpire to invoke the penalty. Furthermore, the player endangered by the carelessly thrown bat may be a teammate of the offender, and whether the “perp” is on offense or defense is irrelevant.

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