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D- Money

Balk ? Pre- set, step off, fake to first

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Runner on first. RH Pitcher taking signs with ball in pitching hand. Prior to moving to a set position.  Moves to step backwards and raise pitching hand simultaniously to fake runner back to first. Is this a balk?

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7 minutes ago, D- Money said:

Runner on first. RH Pitcher taking signs with ball in pitching hand. Prior to moving to a set position.  Moves to step backwards and raise pitching hand simultaniously to fake runner back to first. Is this a balk?

No

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10 hours ago, D- Money said:

Runner on first. RH Pitcher taking signs with ball in pitching hand. Prior to moving to a set position.  Moves to step backwards and raise pitching hand simultaniously to fake runner back to first. Is this a balk?

Technically, the disengagement must occur (be completed, with the pivot on the ground) prior to the hands separating for the feint.

Nobody, at any level enforces it this way (or should do). There's no advantage gained by this kind of feint, so it's legal by philosophy (assuming that he does in fact disengage legally).

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51 minutes ago, maven said:

Technically, the disengagement must occur (be completed, with the pivot on the ground) prior to the hands separating for the feint.

Nobody, at any level enforces it this way (or should do). There's no advantage gained by this kind of feint, so it's legal by philosophy (assuming that he does in fact disengage legally).

Pitcher had not come set yet but you would be correct if he had. There could be a remote possibility of a start to come set and stop balk in the OP depending on the timing but the OP says simultaneously.

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As soon as the pivot foot moves (step off, jump step, jab step, whatever) the runner should head back. Every time. No exceptions. Why, you ask? Because the only thing that can happen then is a pick.  If he gets caught by not doing so it's on him.

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1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Pitcher had not come set yet but you would be correct if he had. There could be a remote possibility of a start to come set and stop balk in the OP depending on the timing but the OP says simultaneously.

I'm not sure what you're thinking, but I know that you know that F1 cannot feint to 1B while engaged. Being set or not is immaterial.

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30 minutes ago, maven said:

I'm not sure what you're thinking, but I know that you know that F1 cannot feint to 1B while engaged. Being set or not is immaterial.

The pitcher did not have his hands together yet. He was looking in for his sign and stepped off while raising his arm to feint. 

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2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

The pitcher did not have his hands together yet. He was looking in for his sign and stepped off while raising his arm to feint. 

Hm. The OP states that the ball is in his pitching hand; you're probably right that the hand is by his side, so separating the hands won't be the issue. The OP did not actually say that the hand was by his side (might be in the glove). We have seen that question often enough as well.

In any case, we agree that the answer to the question is 'no balk', whether or not the hands are together when F1 starts to disengage and feint, provided the acts are roughly simultaneous.

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Ball was in his pitching hand by his side. This was a step off move before the pitcher was in the set position. I didn't balk him but the offence argued that the pitcher moved his arm first. I don't think that its a balk at that point either. I've seen lots of pitchers start to come up to set their hands but step off quickly. Sometimes backward to feint and sometimes a hop step to throw over to 1st. Thanks guys!

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2 hours ago, D- Money said:

Ball was in his pitching hand by his side. This was a step off move before the pitcher was in the set position. I didn't balk him but the offence argued that the pitcher moved his arm first. I don't think that its a balk at that point either. I've seen lots of pitchers start to come up to set their hands but step off quickly. Sometimes backward to feint and sometimes a hop step to throw over to 1st. Thanks guys!

At our levels it’s not a balk. I’ve seen MLB umps call balks as the pitcher is coming set and steps off. They see the stop of coming set and call the start stop balk while the pitcher is stepping off. If you perceive an arm movement as a move to come set or a feint and the step off is not simultaneous you could, but I wouldn’t, unless it was quite clear, call a balk. 

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On 10/04/2018 at 11:59 PM, Jimurray said:

At our levels it’s not a balk. I’ve seen MLB umps call balks as the pitcher is coming set and steps off. They see the stop of coming set and call the start stop balk while the pitcher is stepping off. If you perceive an arm movement as a move to come set or a feint and the step off is not simultaneous you could, but I wouldn’t, unless it was quite clear, call a balk. 

A lot of the times you see this called at  the ML level is because the pitcher realizes he's started and stopped and tries to step off as quick as possible in the hopes nobody noticed the stop in his movement to come set. And they are real quick and good at it. At most of our levels, there's often that noticeable hesitation or stop before it registers with the F1 that he's stopped his motion and should step off. These balks we can get.

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I'm not sure where you guys see this. As I read the OP (could be wrong), he's asking whether F1 may legally feint and disengage simultaneously.

It's nothing to do with starting to come set and then disengaging instead.

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22 minutes ago, maven said:

I'm not sure where you guys see this. As I read the OP (could be wrong), he's asking whether F1 may legally feint and disengage simultaneously.

It's nothing to do with starting to come set and then disengaging instead.

No one said there was a set in the OP. We're just conversing about starting to come set, stopping for a moment , then stepping off to "hide" the start/stop. Just some conversation..he board hasn't exactly been hopping lately.

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1 hour ago, Richvee said:

No one said there was a set in the OP. We're just conversing about starting to come set, stopping for a moment , then stepping off to "hide" the start/stop. Just some conversation..he board hasn't exactly been hopping lately.

The board has been hopping but I’m beginning to think I logged on to Umpire-Ebay:)

But the OP mentioned this, “I've seen lots of pitchers start to come up to set their hands but step off quickly,” and we expounded upon it. 

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Found the following interpretation while searching for something else—thought it would be an interesting addition to this discussion.

2016 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 17: A left-handed pitcher attempts to pick-off the runner at first base. Simultaneously with his throw, the pitcher picks up his pivot foot and places it behind the pitcher’s plate. The throw bounces off the first baseman’s glove and goes into dead-ball territory. The base umpire awards the runner third base, ruling that the pitcher was an infielder and the award is two bases. RULING: The award should be second base; only one base. The status of the pitcher at the time he made the attempted pick-off throw was still that of a pitcher, not an infielder. After the pitcher places his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the pitcher’s plate, his status then changes to that of an infielder. Moving his pivot foot at the same time he attempts the pick-off does not change his status as a pitcher. (6-1-3, 8-3-3d)

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11 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Found the following interpretation while searching for something else—thought it would be an interesting addition to this discussion.

2016 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 17: A left-handed pitcher attempts to pick-off the runner at first base. Simultaneously with his throw, the pitcher picks up his pivot foot and places it behind the pitcher’s plate. The throw bounces off the first baseman’s glove and goes into dead-ball territory. The base umpire awards the runner third base, ruling that the pitcher was an infielder and the award is two bases. RULING: The award should be second base; only one base. The status of the pitcher at the time he made the attempted pick-off throw was still that of a pitcher, not an infielder. After the pitcher places his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the pitcher’s plate, his status then changes to that of an infielder. Moving his pivot foot at the same time he attempts the pick-off does not change his status as a pitcher. (6-1-3, 8-3-3d)

Interesting. Can anyone explain to me why this is a one base award for an overthrow and not a balk?  If he didn't step off the back first, and didn't step to 1B with the right leg we have an award of 2B for a balk, not because his status is still a pitcher. 

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6 hours ago, Richvee said:

Interesting. Can anyone explain to me why this is a one base award for an overthrow and not a balk?  If he didn't step off the back first, and didn't step to 1B with the right leg we have an award of 2B for a balk, not because his status is still a pitcher. 

I read that as being a full move with the pivot foot landing behind the rubber *and* the non-pivot foot making distance-and-direction toward first. No, it doesn't say that, but that's how I pictured it. If it was just a step behind with the pivot foot, I think you're right.

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11 hours ago, kylehutson said:

I read that as being a full move with the pivot foot landing behind the rubber *and* the non-pivot foot making distance-and-direction toward first. No, it doesn't say that, but that's how I pictured it. If it was just a step behind with the pivot foot, I think you're right.

I see what you're saying...Sort of a "jump turn" that a RHP would do without the "turn". I've never seen that. I've only ever seen the LHP's step back and sling it over to 1B without a step. 

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