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Appeal/Force Play

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Guest Coach

Was helping coach a team yesterday, was told I could ask a rule question up here.

Runner on 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs.  Groundball hit in the hole at SS,  SS makes nice back handed play.  Runner from 3rd breaks towards plate, Runner from 2nd was hesitate at first but then took off to 3rd base.  The batter fell down out of the box as he was running up the 1st base line.  The shortstop throws to the 3rd baseman and tags out runner from 2nd going into 3rd base.  The runner from 3rd had easily scored before the tag of R2.  This was the 3rd out.  The defensive coach yells throw to 1st since batter runner was still laying on ground, he throws to 1st base and easily gets out the batter runner.  Does the run count? Is this a force play, timing play, play that can be appealed?

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3 minutes ago, Guest Coach said:

Was helping coach a team yesterday, was told I could ask a rule question up here.

Runner on 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs.  Groundball hit in the hole at SS,  SS makes nice back handed play.  Runner from 3rd breaks towards plate, Runner from 2nd was hesitate at first but then took off to 3rd base.  The batter fell down out of the box as he was running up the 1st base line.  The shortstop throws to the 3rd baseman and tags out runner from 2nd going into 3rd base.  The runner from 3rd had easily scored before the tag of R2.  This was the 3rd out.  The defensive coach yells throw to 1st since batter runner was still laying on ground, he throws to 1st base and easily gets out the batter runner.  Does the run count? Is this a force play, timing play, play that can be appealed?

If you are using OBR/MLB rules there is I think a current interp  that there is no appeal possible. NCAA would allow the appeal and the run would not count. FED(High School) I'm not sure.

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For FED, I recommend interpreting as OBR.

There is no provision in the rules to retire runners after the third out has been made, except for missed base and retouch appeals.

Playing on the BR at 1B is neither of those.

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From the 2016 BRD (section 3, p. 15):

FED: Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  If the defense gains a third out during play but the batter-runner has not yet reached first at the time of the out, the defense may play on him at first for an advantageous fourth out. (email to Stevens, 5/11/01; Website 2010 #20)

2010 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 20: Two outs, R3 at second base. On a 1-2 pitch, R3 attempts to steal third base as the batter attempts to check his swing. R3 is thrown out at third base for the third out. The defense now wants to appeal the check-swing on B4 so that if he went around, he struck out and would not come back to bat in the next half-inning. U1 checks with the base umpire and U2 confirms that B4 did indeed swing at strike three. RULING: Since B4’s out is a “fourth” out, the defense may select the out which is most to its advantage. B4 is out for out No. 3 and the batter following him in the lineup will bat first in the next half-inning. (2-20-2, 9-1-1d)

NCAA: Official Interpretation:  Paronto:  Same as FED. (Arbiter Hub March 2014 #13)

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Mr. Jimurray is right about the OBR interpretation (2016 BRD section 3, p. 16):

Play 2-3: R3, R2, 2 outs. B1 singles to the outfield but injures himself coming out of the box. He cannot continue. R3 scores easily, but R2 is thrown out at home: 3 outs. The catcher then fires to F3, who tags first in advance of BR. Ruling:  In FED/NCAA, cancel R3’s run. In OBR, the run scores, as per OBR official interpretation—

OBR:  Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  The above play does not qualify to become an apparent (advantageous) fourth out. It is made on a runner who has not yet reached a base, not on one who has missed a base or has not properly tagged up from one.

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31 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Jimurray is right about the OBR interpretation (2016 BRD section 3, p. 16):

Play 2-3: R3, R2, 2 outs. B1 singles to the outfield but injures himself coming out of the box. He cannot continue. R3 scores easily, but R2 is thrown out at home: 3 outs. The catcher then fires to F3, who tags first in advance of BR. Ruling:  In FED/NCAA, cancel R3’s run. In OBR, the run scores, as per OBR official interpretation—

OBR:  Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  The above play does not qualify to become an apparent (advantageous) fourth out. It is made on a runner who has not yet reached a base, not on one who has missed a base or has not properly tagged up from one.

Except Jim Evans may not agree with Wendelstedt:

NCAA March 2014 Interps

"13. 8-5j, A.R. 1—in the situation where the third out is recorded at any base other than first base, no run may score if the fourth out is due to the batter-runner not reaching first base before he has been put out.  Example: Two outs, bases loaded, base hit, R3 scores, R2 is thrown out at the plate. B/R has not touched first base due to a leg injury. F2 throws to F3 and the B/R is tagged out. This is a special situation that would fall under the “fourth-out” appeal process and would allow the defense to take any of the last two outs they would choose for the third out. This interpretation is supported by a response from Jim Evans as to how it is interpreted at the professional level."

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1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 BRD (section 3, p. 15):

FED: Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  If the defense gains a third out during play but the batter-runner has not yet reached first at the time of the out, the defense may play on him at first for an advantageous fourth out. (email to Stevens, 5/11/01; Website 2010 #20)

2010 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 20: Two outs, R3 at second base. On a 1-2 pitch, R3 attempts to steal third base as the batter attempts to check his swing. R3 is thrown out at third base for the third out. The defense now wants to appeal the check-swing on B4 so that if he went around, he struck out and would not come back to bat in the next half-inning. U1 checks with the base umpire and U2 confirms that B4 did indeed swing at strike three. RULING: Since B4’s out is a “fourth” out, the defense may select the out which is most to its advantage. B4 is out for out No. 3 and the batter following him in the lineup will bat first in the next half-inning. (2-20-2, 9-1-1d)

NCAA: Official Interpretation:  Paronto:  Same as FED. (Arbiter Hub March 2014 #13)

But the batter out happened when it was strike three and he never became a runner, thus the out at 3B never happened.  Not the same.  The play in question concerns a batter-runner.

 

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1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

2010 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 20: Two outs, R3 at second base.

Holy crap! And I thought the old FED runner designations were rough! R3 ON 2ND?!?:wow:

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2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Except Jim Evans may not agree with Wendelstedt:

NCAA March 2014 Interps

"13. 8-5j, A.R. 1—in the situation where the third out is recorded at any base other than first base, no run may score if the fourth out is due to the batter-runner not reaching first base before he has been put out.  Example: Two outs, bases loaded, base hit, R3 scores, R2 is thrown out at the plate. B/R has not touched first base due to a leg injury. F2 throws to F3 and the B/R is tagged out. This is a special situation that would fall under the “fourth-out” appeal process and would allow the defense to take any of the last two outs they would choose for the third out. This interpretation is supported by a response from Jim Evans as to how it is interpreted at the professional level."

Key is being put out. You are put out by action of the defense. An abandoning runner is not put out.

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I don't like these interps that say you can get a forth out in these situations and negate a run. All rule codes talk of a forth out "appeal". This is not an appeal. Appeals happen after the play, so if a runner misses a base  he is forced to, or BR missing 1B ---I understand the 4th out appeal and it makes sense to me. Tagging a runner running home for the 3rd out........?To me,that's the end of the inning.....there's no good reason a BR should be required to keep running after the inning is technically over.

...oh...and IMO, 2010 SIT 10 is not even close to the same play as a hit that scores R3, R2 tagged at home for out 3, and throw to F3 for out #4 because BR hasn't reached 1B..... And even this interp for the given play is illogical. As Mr. Ives states, once the batter strikes out,  the play on the stealing runner never happens....doesn't matter if the strike is an obvious swing or an appealed check swing. This interp makes no sense to me. How can you interpret a check swing appealed strike three different from a full obvious swing strikeout??  .

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