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Howard

Ball bounces over 3rd base into foul territory

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A batted ball that continues to bounce in fair territory, bounces over the third base bag. However after it bounces "over" the bag its curves.  The next bounce, which is past the 3rd base bag, lands in foul territory.  Is the ball fair or foul?  Thank you.  

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It's not where the ball "lands next" that matters -- it's just where the ball is when it passes the base.  If it's fair (including, obviously, "over the bag" since the bag is in fair territory), then then ball is fair; if the ball is over foul territory when it passes the bag, the ball is foul.

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8 hours ago, Howard said:

A batted ball that continues to bounce in fair territory, bounces over the third base bag. However after it bounces "over" the bag its curves.  The next bounce, which is past the 3rd base bag, lands in foul territory.  Is the ball fair or foul?  Thank you.  

If the ball touches the ground in front of 3B, then passing over 3B makes it a fair ball. Nothing else that happens subsequent to this matters.

If the ball first touches the ground beyond 3B, then where it lands determines its fair/foul status.

You seem to be running together these two distinct criteria.

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21 minutes ago, maven said:

If the ball touches the ground in front of 3B, then passing over 3B makes it a fair ball. Nothing else matters.

If the ball first touches the ground beyond 3B, then where it lands determines its fair/foul status.

All of this assumes that the ball is not touched by a player, of course.

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3 hours ago, CJK said:

All of this assumes that the ball is not touched by a player, of course.

Yes, and indefinitely many other assumptions as well (baseball, current rules, existing laws of physics apply, ball doesn't cease to exist .5 seconds after being hit, sun doesn't nova in the interim, etc.).

But to present a manageable response, I had to go with my best guess as to what the OP meant to ask about, and leave the assumptions tacit.

:P

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A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight…

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5 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight…

We all have a fair ball if any part of the ball satisfies the fair ball definition. But part of the OP’s ball might have also satisfied the foul ball definition. We defer to fair when we have a semantic problem in the rules. Except if you accept the current MLBUM interp of a settled ball which does not apply here. 

Edited by Jimurray
OP didn't say if whole ball passed over 3B.

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15 hours ago, noumpere said:

It's not where the ball "lands next" that matters -- it's just where the ball is when it passes the base.  If it's fair (including, obviously, "over the bag" since the bag is in fair territory), then then ball is fair; if the ball is over foul territory when it passes the bag, the ball is foul.

 

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7 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight…

Thank you!!!

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On 9/17/2018 at 10:39 AM, maven said:

Yes, and indefinitely many other assumptions as well (baseball, current rules, existing laws of physics apply, ball doesn't cease to exist .5 seconds after being hit, sun doesn't nova in the interim, etc.).

But to present a manageable response, I had to go with my best guess as to what the OP meant to ask about, and leave the assumptions tacit.

:P

You forgot about the ball unraveling ala the bugs bunny cartoon.

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On 9/17/2018 at 5:08 PM, Jimurray said:

We all have a fair ball if any part of the ball satisfies the fair ball definition. But part of the OP’s ball might have also satisfied the foul ball definition. We defer to fair when we have a semantic problem in the rules. Except if you accept the current MLBUM interp of a settled ball which does not apply here. 

Which part?

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5 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Which part?

The OP doesn't specify and we can assume the whole ball caught the bag's front corner on the foul line but you also could assume it was curving and part of the ball caught the corner. That part "is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base." The rest of the ball would "bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory,". 

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4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Which part?

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight.

 

By definition, a ball that bounces over third base where half the ball is over the base and half the ball is over foul territory is both a foul and a fair ball.  Further instruction/interpretation/official ruling is/was required to reconcile the discrepancy.

Or, in reality, it's a "pick'em" for the umpire.

 

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29 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight.

 

By definition, a ball that bounces over third base where half the ball is over the base and half the ball is over foul territory is both a foul and a fair ball.  Further instruction/interpretation/official ruling is/was required to reconcile the discrepancy.

Or, in reality, it's a "pick'em" for the umpire.

 

We all would pick fair if any part of the ball meets the fair definition. MLB muddied the waters with their MLBUM interp of a “settled” ball. 

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35 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight.

 

By definition, a ball that bounces over third base where half the ball is over the base and half the ball is over foul territory is both a foul and a fair ball.  Further instruction/interpretation/official ruling is/was required to reconcile the discrepancy.

Or, in reality, it's a "pick'em" for the umpire.

 

If a ball in flight nicks the foul pole on the foul side it's fair and a HR.  Why treat 3B  (or 1B) any differently?

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46 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

If a ball in flight nicks the foul pole on the foul side it's fair and a HR.  Why treat 3B  (or 1B) any differently?

That logic works unless you buy into the MLBUM interp. A ball settled a millimeter before touching the bag and touching foul territory but also over fair territory is now foul. If it rolled a millimeter more and touched the bag it becomes fair. 

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1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

If a ball in flight nicks the foul pole on the foul side it's fair and a HR.  Why treat 3B  (or 1B) any differently?

The same can be said for a ball that nicks the base as it goes by.

The discrepancy comes in the language of "over"....a ball can be over both fair and foul territory, and according to both definitions it is both a fair and foul ball.  Not to mention the recent interpretation mentioned by @Jimurray

I wouldn't treat it any differently.  But I didn't write the rules.   And a fundamentalist would have a fit figuring it out. 

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No need to agonize over rule book semantics if you accept the definition of fair ball found in the Jaksa/Roder manual (2017 edition, p. 26):

“It is a fair ball if any portion of a batted ball…is bounding on or over fair territory when passing any portion of first or third base.”

And here is another example along the lines of the one Mr. Ives posted—

“A strike is ruled if the umpire judges that…the batter has not swung at a pitch, but any portion of the baseball has passed, airborne, through any portion of the strike zone.”

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1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

No need to agonize over rule book semantics if you accept the definition of fair ball found in the Jaksa/Roder manual (2017 edition, p. 26):

“It is a fair ball if any portion of a batted ball…is bounding on or over fair territory when passing any portion of first or third base.”

And here is another example along the lines of the one Mr. Ives posted—

“A strike is ruled if the umpire judges that…the batter has not swung at a pitch, but any portion of the baseball has passed, airborne, through any portion of the strike zone.”

It would be nice if MLB revised the rule to include "any" in the appropriate spots in the fair definition and "all of" in the appropriate spots in the foul definition. But CCS implies that they did not want to go thru a rule change and only clarified a "settled" ball in exactly the opposite way most of us thought it was called, including Jim Evans. What does J-R say about a ball settled on foul territory with some of it, let's say a portion less than half,  over fair territory?

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