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Guest Jeff

Bases Loaded Walk and Umpire Calling Time

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Guest Jeff

Bases are loaded and the batter walks.  At what point can an umpire call time based on a request from the coach?

Situation. In our game, we had bases are loaded and the batter walked.  The runner on 3B walks towards home while the runner on second sprinted around 3B and is moving towards home prior to the runner on 3B touching the plate.  In other words, the runner from 3B has yet to cross home while the runner on 2B has touched 3B and is half way home.  Question: When can an umpire call time on this play?  Our umpire stated it did not matter what the runners on 1B, 2B, or 3B did, he is permitted to call time once the batter touches 1B.  So is he correct that the batter determines when he may call time? 

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The umpire should not call time while a "play is in progress."  Whether a play is in progress, of course, is judgment.

 

95% of the time in the situation you describe, and 99.95% of the time when the players throw and catch at least as well as they run, the play will stop when all runners have advanced the one base.  You describe  play that's in the 5% category.

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Frankly, as far as I know, he can call time whenever he wants if he thinks the action has relaxed.  He's the umpire.  It's his judgment to determine if play is relaxed enough to do so.   Now, if he is habitually calling time where there is action, eg. F2 throws to third to try to get R2 who is too far off the base - your only recourse is reporting it to the association.   

Even if he calls time before any of the runners has reached their next base they are required to complete their obligations.

Now, his point about waiting until the batter touches first makes sense - on a walk the other runners aren't officially forced until the batter reaches first base.

Rule 5.05(b)(1) Comment (Rule 6.08(a) Comment): A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls, including an award of first base to a batter by an umpire following a signal from a manager, must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game

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FED:  If a batter receives ball four, the umpire shall not grant time until the batter reaches first. (2-4-2; 2.4.2)

FED Case Book Play 2.4.2 SITUATION:  B1 receives ball four and he or a teammate or coach of Team A immediately requests time. RULING:  The umpire shall ignore the request and order B1 to go to first base, after which a player or coach of Team A may request time.

NCAA:  Same as FED. (2018 rule 6-1a Note 2)

OBR: Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  “In theory, an umpire should not grant time until all runners have reached their awarded bases. However, in practice, umpires may grant time when they are certain that no runner is attempting, or going to attempt, to advance beyond his award.”

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23 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

RULING:  The umpire shall ignore the request and order B1 to go to first base, after which a player or coach of Team A may request time.

I'm on board with the "ignore" part, but the "order"? I don't think so. Good thing I don't work FED ball.

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29 minutes ago, LRZ said:

I'm on board with the "ignore" part, but the "order"? I don't think so. Good thing I don't work FED ball.

I wouldn't put too much weight on the diction there. The case writer is envisioning a play where the coach wants to talk to the BR (about to be R1) and intercepts him on the way to 1B.

The point of the case is that we grant time after the runner(s) reach their awarded base(s). If they're not advancing, then we admonish, instruct, request and require, communicate our cherished hope, or order that they do so.

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FED rule 2-4-2:  A base on balls is an award of first base (often referred to as a “walk”) if a batter receives four such balls. The batter must (emphasis added) go immediately to first base before time-out is called.

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As a game management technique, for games that matter (so no travel ball scrimmages), I will hold granting time until B/R gets to 1st... I have had teams fake like they don't care about the B/R, get him to feel content and then snap throw when he is not looking. Would suck to call time as the ball sails over a fence :wow:

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5 hours ago, Guest Jeff said:

The runner on 3B walks towards home while the runner on second sprinted around 3B and is moving towards home prior to the runner on 3B touching the plate.  In other words, the runner from 3B has yet to cross home while the runner on 2B has touched 3B and is half way home.

This is likely 12U ball (my guess, even younger), and this is one team overly keyed up on "being opportunistic" and is going to pounce on a F1's inability to receive the throw back from his F2. There's one thing if it's a wild pitch or pass ball on Ball 4, wherein some F1's completely ignore or forget to cover the plate because R3 is coming in anyway, unable to be put out (unless he misses touching the plate, but that's a whole other tangent), so an opportunistic R2 can take advantage of it. But otherwise, once the ball is secured by the F2, and all play has otherwise ceased, we're calling Time if so requested. 

If I have a coach or manager requesting Time (by heading out of the dugout towards the foul line), or I have a F2 (with ball in hand) after Ball 4, I will tell the F2 I'll call Time as soon as the most advanced Runner has reached his destination base. In the case of a bases loaded walk, it's as soon as R3 touches Home. I think that the touch of Home (and the scoring of a run) should be a Live ball event as best practice, whenever possible or under our control (obviously, a HBP or a ball thrown/pitched into DBT makes the ball Dead, so this isn't exclusive).

I'll tell ya, this isn't done, or even seen, in 60-90 baseball.

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3 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

As a game management technique, for games that matter (so no travel ball scrimmages), I will hold granting time until B/R gets to 1st... I have had teams fake like they don't care about the B/R, get him to feel content and then snap throw when he is not looking. Would suck to call time as the ball sails over a fence :wow:

Even more so if BR was not on the bag and an out was negated.

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In the case play, the BR is B1 and the coach is Coach A. Even a FED case writer would not envision Coach A talking to Team B's BR.

I know what the point is, but someone literal-minded and new to umpiring might read the case as a mandate and jump right into "ordering."

And while I'm getting agitated about language--they were the tools of my trades for 40 years, and I think the words we choose matter--I'm not crazy about "ignoring" the request, instead of acknowledging it and letting the coach know that he has to wait until the BR reaches first and/or play is relaxed. 

Doesn't FED encourage preventive officiating?

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17 hours ago, maven said:

I wouldn't put too much weight on the diction there. The case writer is envisioning a play where the coach wants to talk to the BR (about to be R1) and intercepts him on the way to 1B.

The point of the case is that we grant time after the runner(s) reach their awarded base(s). If they're not advancing, then we admonish, instruct, request and require, communicate our cherished hope, or order that they do so.

I suspect, the case is envisioning the defensive coach calling time, immediately after the walk, because he's going to go talk to his pitcher to settle him down, or sub him out - the coach, which I think happens a lot, is jumping the gun a bit, and is requesting time as he is starting to walk out of the dugout towards the pitcher, assuming action is relaxed - oblivious to where the runners are (usually, the coach will at least make sure the ball has been caught by F2, if not already thrown back to F1 before requesting time - less experienced coaches will even miss this).

So, does one ignore the coach...or do you give a firm "not yet, coach"...or do you tell him what you're waiting for "need the runners to advance first, coach"?

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30 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I suspect, the case is envisioning the defensive coach calling time, immediately after the walk, because he's going to go talk to his pitcher to settle him down, or sub him out - the coach, which I think happens a lot, is jumping the gun a bit, and is requesting time as he is starting to walk out of the dugout towards the pitcher, assuming action is relaxed - oblivious to where the runners are (usually, the coach will at least make sure the ball has been caught by F2, if not already thrown back to F1 before requesting time - less experienced coaches will even miss this).

So, does one ignore the coach...or do you give a firm "not yet, coach"...or do you tell him what you're waiting for "need the runners to advance first, coach"?

Go with "not yet coach".

One thing that happens often in youth ball when there's an R3 is having the walked runner just continue on to 2B. Don't do anything that would stop that.

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3 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

"As soon as he gets to first Ernie" works every time.

One thing that happens often in youth ball when there's an R3 is having the walked runner just continue on to 2B. Don't do anything that would stop that.

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3 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

"As soon as he gets to first Ernie" works every time.

Agreed.  And, the more experienced the players and the more relaxed the game, the more likely I am to use the "Wendelstadt Interp" posted above (and, sometimes, you need to know the teams as well).  It's an example (assuming the OP is something like 12U) where using a pro-mechanic / game management technique is NOT appropriate for younger players.

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2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

One thing that happens often in youth ball when there's an R3 is having the walked runner just continue on to 2B. Don't do anything that would stop that.

If he's busting his rear to first, yes. If he's lollygagging, he can stay there.

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1 hour ago, kylehutson said:

If he's busting his rear to first, yes. If he's lollygagging, he can stay there.

You obviously don't know how to set up the move. You lollygag to lull the defense to sleep.

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49 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

You obviously don't know how to set up the move. You lollygag to lull the defense to sleep.

I get what you're saying, but if you're paying attention, you can see that coming, too (going straight to the base, as opposed to walking toward the outside, watching the fielders, and getting ready to make a break when he gets close).

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On 9/10/2018 at 1:51 PM, Guest Jeff said:

Situation. In our game, we had bases are loaded and the batter walked.  The runner on 3B walks towards home while the runner on second sprinted around 3B and is moving towards home prior to the runner on 3B touching the plate.  In other words, the runner from 3B has yet to cross home while the runner on 2B has touched 3B and is half way home.  Question: When can an umpire call time on this play?  Our umpire stated it did not matter what the runners on 1B, 2B, or 3B did, he is permitted to call time once the batter touches 1B.  So is he correct that the batter determines when he may call time? 

This web site is here to discuss baseball situations. I don't know what game the offense is playing in this situation, but it ain''t baseball. Coaches that teach  these tactics prove that caning should be returned to our justice system ... and added to all youth sports rules to discourage such behavior.

The question shouldn't be, did the umpire properly call TIME. The question should be who the FAQ thought it was a good idea to allow this coach anywhere near their kids.

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