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Richvee

More on throws deflected out of play

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Lots of talk recently on overthrows that later deflect off fielders and out of play. 

@Gil s two articles,

 https://www.closecallsports.com/2018/07/uefl-case-play-2018-6-kicked-out-of-play.htm

 https://www.closecallsports.com/2017/09/case-play-2017-9-deflected-error-triple.html

...and other posts throughout the site.

I'm going to add a similar play that happened to me this season

This field doesn't have a fence up the RF line. Instead, there's an out of play line that runs parallel to the RF  foul line leaving about 30 feet of foul ground in play between the RF line and the out of play line.

 R1, outs don't matter. Bunt and run, ball fielded and air mailed over F3's head rolling down RF between the foul line and OOP line. F9 slow getting over, by the time he gets there, R1 is around 3B, BR between 1B and 2B.  The ball is still rolling when F9 gets to the ball, which is about 20 feet into foul ground, 10 feet from the OOP line and heading parallel to the two lines and within a few feet of coming to a stop when F9 bends down to pick up the ball, and somehow, as he's picking it up, it squirts out from his hands and rolls OOP. 

Do you put the runners at 2nd and 3rd (first play from the IF, TOP), use 8.01(c) and common sense and fair play and put BR at 3rd and score R1? 

We decided on the later. Didn't get an argument from the DHC. Had we got any flack, I was ready to defend the call saying F9 had possession of the ball, for the subsequent fumble OOP is 2 bases time of drop. 

let's say it's obvious F9 DOESN'T gain possession, and he unintentionally kicks it, or swats at it with his glove and the ball rolls OOP.   What  do we have? 

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The debate on whether this is a batted or thrown ball is moot. Until it's possessed or becomes dead by rule, it's a batted ball. But this question (TOP vs TOT) award turns on a distinct concept: impetus or force.

What put the ball out of play, the force of the batter or the force of the fielder? If the former, then it's a TOP award; if the latter, then it's a TOT award. The rationale for the differential treatment is that we don't give the offense additional benefit when they themselves cause the ball to leave the field. We do when the defense does it in order to prevent the defense gaining an advantage (such as: extra base hit inside the park, but a fielder kicks the ball out of play to try to get a TOP award that "unscores" runs).

The MLBUM etc. guidance provides philosophy for determining the answer to this question.

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4 hours ago, maven said:

The debate on whether this is a batted or thrown ball is moot. Until it's possessed or becomes dead by rule, it's a batted ball. But this question (TOP vs TOT) award turns on a distinct concept: impetus or force.

 

That's so much easier than trying to define, or redefine, a batted and thrown ball, or, as I've been trying to do, create a new state of being between batted and thrown.

I was trying to reconcile by saying a TOT award must mean it's not a batted ball.  Rather than just treating it as an exception.

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Mr. maven could you give an actual cite for your assertion that “this question (TOP vs TOT) award turns on a distinct concept: impetus or force. . I have a copy of the 2015 MLBUM and in its section 17 (Balls Deflected Out of Play) appearing on pages 12-14 it says nothing like that.

It seems to me that the concept most important to determining most base awards is whether the deflection was intentional or unintentional.

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1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. maven could you give an actual cite for your assertion that “this question (TOP vs TOT) award turns on a distinct concept: impetus or force.

 

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10 minutes ago, maven said:

 

Can we expand this caseplay to include throws? 

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1 hour ago, Richvee said:

Can we expand this caseplay to include throws? 

That would be odd. What would an accidental throw be?

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58 minutes ago, maven said:

That would be odd. What would an accidental throw be?

Perhaps I'm not clear. This case play is about a batted ball that (a)stops or (b)doesn't stop and then gets kicked OOP.

2018 FED Case Book Play 8.3.3 Situation J:  B1 singles to right field, (a) the ball rolls to a stop and F9, attempting to pick it up, kicks the ball into dead-ball territory or (b) the bouncing ball strikes F9 on the leg and deflects into dead-ball territory. RULING:  In (a), F9 applied the impetus that caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, which is the same as if he had thrown it there. The award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the kick (throw). In (b), the force on the batted ball caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, so the award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

 

Can this case play be applied to the OP play, where an overthrow, down the RF line gets kicked OOP by F9?

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9 hours ago, Richvee said:

Can this case play be applied to the OP play, where an overthrow, down the RF line gets kicked OOP by F9?

The only thing that would make the award a TOP award is a batted ball. If you remove that from the situation, the award will always be 2 bases, TOT, no matter how the fielder moves the ball out of play (throw, kick, blowing on it, telekinesis, ...).

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1 hour ago, maven said:

The only thing that would make the award a TOP award is a batted ball. If you remove that from the situation, the award will always be 2 bases, TOT, no matter how the fielder moves the ball out of play (throw, kick, blowing on it, telekinesis, ...).

So if the impetus came from the fielder, rather than the throw, you're saying it wouldn't matter - there would be no "time of error" provision, like what happened in the first Gil article above.

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13 hours ago, maven said:

That would be odd. What would an accidental throw be?

If a pitch slips from a pitcher's hand it's accidental but still a pitch. Same with a throw.

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45 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

If a pitch slips from a pitcher's hand it's accidental but still a pitch. Same with a throw.

They're not parallel, but it doesn't really matter.

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5 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

If a pitch slips from a pitcher's hand it's accidental but still a pitch. Same with a throw.

Sometimes it's just a balk. And, IIRC, a balk is not a pitch.

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On 8/1/2018 at 10:00 PM, Richvee said:

Perhaps I'm not clear. This case play is about a batted ball that (a)stops or (b)doesn't stop and then gets kicked OOP.

2018 FED Case Book Play 8.3.3 Situation J:  B1 singles to right field, (a) the ball rolls to a stop and F9, attempting to pick it up, kicks the ball into dead-ball territory or (b) the bouncing ball strikes F9 on the leg and deflects into dead-ball territory. RULING:  In (a), F9 applied the impetus that caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, which is the same as if he had thrown it there. The award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the kick (throw). In (b), the force on the batted ball caused the ball to go into dead-ball territory, so the award to any runner is two bases from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

 

Can this case play be applied to the OP play, where an overthrow, down the RF line gets kicked OOP by F9?

I would,

 

And, I think NCAA has the same rule on this (the OP) as FED, but I don't have the ability to look it up in the book right now (iirc, the specific ruling is placed in an "odd" spot where it's nto entirely clear to what situations it applies; I was taught it applies to batted balls, etc.). And, absent anything specific to the contrary, I'd apply it to OBR as well.

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