Another Force play slide INT video

[humanbackstop19]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mwYUZJMfsXYaY1zL7

 

This one is a little different.  My main question is:  If the runner is safe, how can there be force play slide interference?  I cannot find a FED citation that supports this, but it is cited in NCAA.  

[lawump]

38 minutes ago, humanbackstop19 said:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mwYUZJMfsXYaY1zL7

 

This one is a little different.  My main question is:  If the runner is safe, how can there be force play slide interference?  I cannot find a FED citation that supports this, but it is cited in NCAA.  

The runner is not safe; he is "out" for the slide interference.  Rule 8-4-2 (b).  PENALTY: The runner is out. Interference is called and the ball is dead immediately. On a force-play slide with less than two outs, the runner is declared out, as well as the batter-runner. Runners shall return to the bases occupied at the time of the pitch. With two outs, the runner is declared out. The batter is credited with a fielder's choice.

The interference supersedes his being safe on the play itself.

[maven]

57 minutes ago, humanbackstop19 said:

My main question is:  If the runner is safe, how can there be force play slide interference?

True, the defense did not retire the runner. Rather, he is called or ruled out as part of the penalty for violating the FPSR.

Your question is akin to asking: if he scored on the play, how could he be called out on appeal? Or: if the obstructed runner was put out, how can he be entitled to the next base? The two are not mutually exclusive: the penalties for various infractions will include calling or nullifying outs.

[GreyhoundAggie]

Do you see interference on this play Maven? It looks bad because the contact was hard going into 2nd, just curious how others see the play.

I've rewatched it a few times and it is definitely a bit of a late slide, but he appears to make contact with the defender on top of 2B, and he slides directly into the bag.

 

[Thunderheads]

35 minutes ago, GreyhoundAggie said:

Do you see interference on this play Maven? It looks bad because the contact was hard going into 2nd, just curious how others see the play.

I've rewatched it a few times and it is definitely a bit of a late slide, but he appears to make contact with the defender on top of 2B, and he slides directly into the bag.

 

??  No ...that's one of the easiest FPSR situations I've seen in a long time!  Late slide, past the bag to make contact.  No brainer

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

??  No ...that's one of the easiest FPSR situations I've seen in a long time!  Late slide, past the bag to make contact.  No brainer

Going past the bag would be legal in NCAA but I think it would still be an illegal slide and FPSR.

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

Going past the bag would be legal in NCAA but I think it would still be an illegal slide and FPSR.

Ahhh, sorry ...I was speaking NFHS soley ....

[grayhawk]

17 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Ahhh, sorry ...I was speaking NFHS soley ....

Going past the bag isn’t why this is FPSR, IMO. The fielder wasn’t behind the bag when contact first occurred. I have FPSR because the runner didn’t have his leg and buttuck on the ground prior to contacting the fielder. As others have said, being “safe” on the play itself is irrelevant. 

[Aging_Arbiter]

Great to see you back in action (online) @grayhawk

[umpstu]

3 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mwYUZJMfsXYaY1zL7

 

This one is a little different.  My main question is:  If the runner is safe, how can there be force play slide interference?  I cannot find a FED citation that supports this, but it is cited in NCAA.  

What is with high school baseball in Iowa?  One runner violation after another this year.

[umpstu]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Going past the bag would be legal in NCAA but I think it would still be an illegal slide and FPSR.

I think going past the bag is fine as long as it's not a violation of the FPSR.

[Thunderheads]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

Going past the bag isn’t why this is FPSR, IMO. The fielder wasn’t behind the bag when contact first occurred. I have FPSR because the runner didn’t have his leg and buttuck on the ground prior to contacting the fielder. As others have said, being “safe” on the play itself is irrelevant. 

it's more than just this, but it's a part of it for sure,....there are lots of parts to this one!    Great to see you hangin' out online Steve!  Go get 'em partner, we are all with you! Thoughts and prayers for a super-speedy recovery!!

[umpstu]

2 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

it's more than just this, but it's a part of it for sure,....there are lots of parts to this one!    Great to see you hangin' out online Steve!  Go get 'em partner, we are all with you! Thoughts and prayers for a super-speedy recovery!!

Hope to see him next week when I'm in his neighborhood.

[humanbackstop19]

I'll chime in.  I see NO FPSR INT in this play.  

1) The runner must make contact with the fielder beyond the base for it to be an illegal slide.  I've got contact in the baseline (directly between bases) prior to the base.  At the very least, it's on top of the base where F4 took the throw in a kneeled position (which the rule is only violated if the fielder is "standing").  

2) The timing of the slide is late, but according to the case book in 2017, irrelevant.  

2017 NFHS CASE BOOK - 2.32.1:  "With a runner on first base, a ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 covering second.  R 1 slides late at second, stays in the baseline, but makes contact with F4 who is in front of the base, who overthrows first base.  RULING:  Providing the slide is legal, and the contact is not malicious, there is no violation."  

I place blame back on coaches.  F4 should have been coached to get in front of the bag to take this throw.  He should have been stretching like a first baseman from the corner of the bag towards home plate, because a double-play was not going to be possible.  If F4 was in this position and R1 still makes contact, we've got an easy call.  

[umpstu]

50 minutes ago, humanbackstop19 said:

I'll chime in.  I see NO FPSR INT in this play.  

1) The runner must make contact with the fielder beyond the base for it to be an illegal slide.  I've got contact in the baseline (directly between bases) prior to the base.  At the very least, it's on top of the base where F4 took the throw in a kneeled position (which the rule is only violated if the fielder is "standing").  

2) The timing of the slide is late, but according to the case book in 2017, irrelevant.  

2017 NFHS CASE BOOK - 2.32.1:  "With a runner on first base, a ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 covering second.  R 1 slides late at second, stays in the baseline, but makes contact with F4 who is in front of the base, who overthrows first base.  RULING:  Providing the slide is legal, and the contact is not malicious, there is no violation."  

I place blame back on coaches.  F4 should have been coached to get in front of the bag to take this throw.  He should have been stretching like a first baseman from the corner of the bag towards home plate, because a double-play was not going to be possible.  If F4 was in this position and R1 still makes contact, we've got an easy call.  

It's that the runner did not have a leg and buttock on the ground.  What Grayhawk says.

[GreyhoundAggie]

2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Going past the bag isn’t why this is FPSR, IMO. The fielder wasn’t behind the bag when contact first occurred. I have FPSR because the runner didn’t have his leg and buttuck on the ground prior to contacting the fielder. As others have said, being “safe” on the play itself is irrelevant. 

Great to see you back @Grayhawk.

After slowing down the video you can see that he is still in the air when he initially makes contact on the slide. Im sure thats why he slid late to break up the play.

I would have called this FPSR at full speed most likely, its just not as cut and dry as others. I know people want to see the hard contact and automatically say "its FPSR".

It's very close to being a legal slide if he starts to slide just a foot earlier and then makes hard contact.

[JSam21]

3 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

I'll chime in.  I see NO FPSR INT in this play.  

1) The runner must make contact with the fielder beyond the base for it to be an illegal slide.  I've got contact in the baseline (directly between bases) prior to the base.  At the very least, it's on top of the base where F4 took the throw in a kneeled position (which the rule is only violated if the fielder is "standing").  

2) The timing of the slide is late, but according to the case book in 2017, irrelevant.  

2017 NFHS CASE BOOK - 2.32.1:  "With a runner on first base, a ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 covering second.  R 1 slides late at second, stays in the baseline, but makes contact with F4 who is in front of the base, who overthrows first base.  RULING:  Providing the slide is legal, and the contact is not malicious, there is no violation."  

I place blame back on coaches.  F4 should have been coached to get in front of the bag to take this throw.  He should have been stretching like a first baseman from the corner of the bag towards home plate, because a double-play was not going to be possible.  If F4 was in this position and R1 still makes contact, we've got an easy call.  

Key point highlighted.... the slide wasn't legal... 

[maven]

4 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Going past the bag isn’t why this is FPSR, IMO. The fielder wasn’t behind the bag when contact first occurred. I have FPSR because the runner didn’t have his leg and buttuck on the ground prior to contacting the fielder. As others have said, being “safe” on the play itself is irrelevant. 

I agree, but should you be doing rehab?

[Replacematt]

3 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

I'll chime in.  I see NO FPSR INT in this play.  

1) The runner must make contact with the fielder beyond the base for it to be an illegal slide.  

It can be illegal for other reasons (the relevant one to the OP has already been mentioned.) If a runner deviates from a straight line between bases and makes contact or alters the fielder's play, it is also an illegal slide, as well if initial contact with the foot is too high, etc.

[grayhawk]

4 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

it's more than just this, but it's a part of it for sure,....there are lots of parts to this one!    Great to see you hangin' out online Steve!  Go get 'em partner, we are all with you! Thoughts and prayers for a super-speedy recovery!!

 Thanks Jeff - all of the support that I have gotten has made a huge difference in my recovery. About sliding past the bag, I think it’s important to understand that when a fielder is on or in front of the bag, rather than behind it, and the runner makes contact and then slides through the bag that this is not an FPSR violation as long as the slide is otherwise legal. So in this case the runner sliding past the bag is legal, but the fact that he doesn’t have one leg and buttock on the ground prior to contacting the fielder makes this an illegal slide and an FPSR violation. 

[Thunderheads]

14 hours ago, grayhawk said:

 Thanks Jeff - all of the support that I have gotten has made a huge difference in my recovery. About sliding past the bag, I think it’s important to understand that when a fielder is on or in front of the bag, rather than behind it, and the runner makes contact and then slides through the bag that this is not an FPSR violation as long as the slide is otherwise legal. So in this case the runner sliding past the bag is legal, but the fact that he doesn’t have one leg and buttock on the ground prior to contacting the fielder makes this an illegal slide and an FPSR violation. 

 Steve, ... looking at it again, I see where you're coming from and concur

[BT_Blue]

Agreed. This is one of the more easier FPSR I have seen in a bit. I'm with Steve on this. He is still airborne when he makes contact.

[grayhawk]

On 7/31/2018 at 2:00 PM, maven said:

I agree, but should you be doing rehab?

Been doing rehab 3 hours a day since July 13th. Finally going home Tuesday!  I’m more than ready since I’ve been in a hospital since my accident on the 5th. 

[maven]

2 hours ago, grayhawk said:

Been doing rehab 3 hours a day since July 13th. Finally going home Tuesday!  I’m more than ready since I’ve been in a hospital since my accident on the 5th. 

Good job. Keep at it. As I'm sure you know, at our age, rehab is harder and more essential.

Safe home.

[Mudisfun]

On 8/4/2018 at 2:44 PM, grayhawk said:

Been doing rehab 3 hours a day since July 13th. Finally going home Tuesday!  I’m more than ready since I’ve been in a hospital since my accident on the 5th. 

Crazy to think it has been that long already. Welcome back Steve, and congrats on the appointment as the official rules guy for the association.