Botched Appeal Attempt on R3 Leaving Early

[Mudder]

OBB, I'm PU, R2 & R3, 2 out batter hits a trouble fly ball to left, F7 is playing deep, but is charging in hard and makes a circus catch. R3 tags and scores and R2 tags and advances to 3B.  Defense wants to appeal R3 left early, F1 steps off rubber and throws to 3B, but overthrows F5, but ball remains in play, runner at 3B comes home, F5 retrieves errant throw and throws home, runner is easily safe.  F2 then throws to F5 to again try to appeal the original R3 leaving early.  I say they've lost their right to appeal because a play has happened (throwing home to get the runner after the errant thrown on the original appeal play).  Defensive coach accepts this, but then says they screwed up, they should have appealed R2 leaving early, not R3, I did not allow that appeal either for the same reason as above.

Questions:

1. Was I correct in not allowing the 2nd appeal attempt on the original R3 because of the ensuing play trying to put the runner out at home after the errant throw?
2. Was I correct in not allowing the appeal attempt on R2, or did they have the right to appeal? 
3. On the errant throw to 3B on the appeal attempt, if F5 had just gone over to pick up the ball and just step on 3B, instead of throwing home to try and get the runner, would that appeal attempt have been allowed, I think yes as no play has happened to cause them to lose their right to appeal?

 

[Jimurray]

13 minutes ago, Mudder said:

OBB, I'm PU, R2 & R3, 2 out batter hits a trouble fly ball to left, F7 is playing deep, but is charging in hard and makes a circus catch. R3 tags and scores and R2 tags and advances to 3B.  Defense wants to appeal R3 left early, F1 steps off rubber and throws to 3B, but overthrows F5, but ball remains in play, runner at 3B comes home, F5 retrieves errant throw and throws home, runner is easily safe.  F2 then throws to F5 to again try to appeal the original R3 leaving early.  I say they've lost their right to appeal because a play has happened (throwing home to get the runner after the errant thrown on the original appeal play).  Defensive coach accepts this, but then says they screwed up, they should have appealed R2 leaving early, not R3, I did not allow that appeal either for the same reason as above.

Questions:

1. Was I correct in not allowing the 2nd appeal attempt on the original R3 because of the ensuing play trying to put the runner out at home after the errant throw?
2. Was I correct in not allowing the appeal attempt on R2, or did they have the right to appeal? 
3. On the errant throw to 3B on the appeal attempt, if F5 had just gone over to pick up the ball and just step on 3B, instead of throwing home to try and get the runner, would that appeal attempt have been allowed, I think yes as no play has happened to cause them to lose their right to appeal?

 

I think you mean OBR.

1. Yes

2. Correct

3. Yes in OBR.

[stkjock]

24 minutes ago, Mudder said:

OBB, I'm PU, R2 & R3, 2 out batter hits a trouble fly ball to left, F7 is playing deep, but is charging in hard and makes a circus catch. R3 tags and scores and R2 tags and advances to 3B.  Defense wants to appeal R3 left early, F1 steps off rubber and throws to 3B, but overthrows F5, but ball remains in play, runner at 3B comes home, F5 retrieves errant throw and throws home, runner is easily safe.  F2 then throws to F5 to again try to appeal the original R3 leaving early.  I say they've lost their right to appeal because a play has happened (throwing home to get the runner after the errant thrown on the original appeal play).  Defensive coach accepts this, but then says they screwed up, they should have appealed R2 leaving early, not R3, I did not allow that appeal either for the same reason as above.

if there were 2 out, why does it matter?  the catch is end of inning

[Mudder]

45 minutes ago, stkjock said:

if there were 2 out, why does it matter?  the catch is end of inning

That should of read less than 2 out

[MadMax]

@Jimurray‘s response is correct, the defense lost the right to appeal on the overthrow and subsequent further play.

Now, with that said, there’s something within the details of the situation to question and point out...

Was Time called, and if it had, why??? Leaving the ball Live (as much as possible) alleviates a lot of problems and grief here! And while the actual appeal has to be physically performed (instead of Fed, which can be verbal), this doesn’t mean that we (umpires and players) can’t talk during it! We can simply say or state the status of the ball (“The ball is still Live”), thus all the antics and theatrics of F1 engaging (so as to enable the PU to call “Play” and make the ball Live), stepping off and throwing are unnecessary. 

Moral of the story? Leave the ball Live. Call Time only if necessary.

[Thatsnotyou]

@MadMax, I just feel like the vast majority of players/coaches/fans don't understand how to appeal, even if OBR. They think the only way to appeal is to always get on the rubber, then step off, etc. You'll have coaches yelling "we're going to appeal 3rd, Timmy get on the rubber," etc. Meanwhile it was just a SAC fly, no one else on, the ball is clearly still live.

[noumpere]

35 minutes ago, MadMax said:

@Jimurray‘s response is correct, the defense lost the right to appeal on the overthrow and subsequent further play.

Now, with that said, there’s something within the details of the situation to question and point out...

Was Time called, and if it had, why??? Leaving the ball Live (as much as possible) alleviates a lot of problems and grief here! And while the actual appeal has to be physically performed (instead of Fed, which can be verbal), this doesn’t mean that we (umpires and players) can’t talk during it! We can simply say or state the status of the ball (“The ball is still Live”), thus all the antics and theatrics of F1 engaging (so as to enable the PU to call “Play” and make the ball Live), stepping off and throwing are unnecessary. 

Moral of the story? Leave the ball Live. Call Time only if necessary.

All true, but sometimes the defense doesn’t know that and goes through the actions anyway. And we shouldn’t stop them—it would be coaching

[Thatsnotyou]

9 hours ago, noumpere said:

All true, but sometimes the defense doesn’t know that and goes through the actions anyway. And we shouldn’t stop them—it would be coaching

Agreed, though in FED, with relaxed action and a coach hollering at me about leaving early or what they want to appeal or even walking towards me, etc, I will sometimes just call time and ask them what their question is and get the dead ball appeal out of the way. 

[beerguy55]

23 hours ago, Hkepuck said:

@MadMax, I just feel like the vast majority of players/coaches/fans don't understand how to appeal, even if OBR. They think the only way to appeal is to always get on the rubber, then step off, etc. You'll have coaches yelling "we're going to appeal 3rd, Timmy get on the rubber," etc. Meanwhile it was just a SAC fly, no one else on, the ball is clearly still live.

I suspect that some of this is learned from TV where MLB umpires are calling time as soon as action is relaxed to switch the balls and so you see the full appeal process (watched on the other night in the Mariners/Angels game).   If the play is still live...just go touch the damned base.

[noumpere]

On 7/31/2018 at 12:10 AM, Hkepuck said:

Agreed, though in FED, with relaxed action and a coach hollering at me about leaving early or what they want to appeal or even walking towards me, etc, I will sometimes just call time and ask them what their question is and get the dead ball appeal out of the way. 

Yes -- but if there are still runners then you are depriving the offense of an opportunity to advance during the play -- so be careful of when you use this technique.

[Thatsnotyou]

Sure, but relaxed action to me (when wanting to call time) means the ball is in the infield and the base runners are standing on the base, so not depriving them anything but running into an out.

[noumpere]

17 minutes ago, Hkepuck said:

Sure, but relaxed action to me (when wanting to call time) means the ball is in the infield and the base runners are standing on the base, so not depriving them anything but running into an out.

Unless, as in the OP (iirc), the defense throws the ball away on the appeal and runners advance.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Unless, as in the OP (iirc), the defense throws the ball away on the appeal and runners advance.

Any runner advancing, with a wild throw that did not go out of play would not preclude an appeal in OBR or FED. It would in NCAA.

[Thatsnotyou]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

Unless, as in the OP (iirc), the defense throws the ball away on the appeal and runners advance.

And if I call time to clean the plate, I'm depriving the runner on 3B from possibly advancing home if the shortstop overthrows the pitcher from 10 feet away. On and on it goes.

Again, OP is OBR, I said FED.

[noumpere]

31 minutes ago, Hkepuck said:

And if I call time to clean the plate, I'm depriving the runner on 3B from possibly advancing home if the shortstop overthrows the pitcher from 10 feet away. On and on it goes.

Again, OP is OBR, I said FED.

I probably wouldn't call time there, either.

 

But, it depends a bit on the level of play.