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humanbackstop19

NFHS Malicious Contact?????

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40 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Without knowing where the throw was I have my doubts about the catcher's intention. He appears set up outside the foul line and then move into the runners path. Where would the actual throw take him? I don't see a ball in the clips.

Given the actions of the runner, I don't really care. MC supersedes all of that, so it's immaterial given my judgment that the runner not only made no attempt to avoid but intentionally delivered a punishing blow.

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During game three,  of the 2017 Class AAA best-of-3 state championship series (I was the plate umpire and crew chief), I initiated a crew conference when I thought my third base umpire (we had a four man crew) had missed a malicious contact call (he did not call malicious contact).  There was a rundown between second and third, and R2, in my opinion, took-out the defensive player with a forearm shot as the defensive player was applying the tag...knocking the defensive player to the ground.  The players started jawing at one another, so I hustled up the line to help break that up.  When that was over, my partner had only called the "out", he had not called MC.  I immediately got the crew together.  We didn't have much of a discussion in that I said, "I have malicious contact, does anyone have anything different."  When I received three "no's", I turned and ejected the player.  

Luckily, the head coach/third base coach actually said, "I agree.  That's the right call."

You have to get these when they occur.  If not, you then have to worry about retaliation the rest of the game...which can lead to the game getting out-of-control.

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1 hour ago, scrounge said:

Completely screened.

I guess I'm not sure what else he needed to see. Batter/Runner essentially barreling at full speed right toward him minus F2 getting in the way. He could have been out in the parking lot and if he could see the home plate area could see the batter/runner truck the catcher. 

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17 minutes ago, scrounge said:

Given the actions of the runner, I don't really care. MC supersedes all of that, so it's immaterial given my judgment that the runner not only made no attempt to avoid but intentionally delivered a punishing blow.

Agreed.

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27 minutes ago, maven said:

"Getting together".... For judgment calls, it's usually disrespectful:....

"Usually" implies the occasional exception: in the circumstances, this might have been one.

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5 minutes ago, LRZ said:

"Usually" implies the occasional exception: in the circumstances, this might have been one.

I've seen crews get together for a lot less! 

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46 minutes ago, scrounge said:

Given the actions of the runner, I don't really care. MC supersedes all of that, so it's immaterial given my judgment that the runner not only made no attempt to avoid but intentionally delivered a punishing blow.

Watch again. F2 leans towards the runner and dips his left shoulder into the runner's chest.

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4 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Watch again. F2 leans towards the runner and dips his left shoulder into the runner's chest.

No, ...F2 goes to jump for the errant throw ...that's what you're seeing .....   if he were trying to lower his shoulder, F2 would have been flattened the way he was

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This still is less than a step away from the collision. F2 isn't lowering anything. @Thunderheads is spot on here. Heck his eyes are still looking toward centerfield...but #1 looks like Ray Lewis prepared to lower the boom! 

 

Slide.jpg

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2 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

This still is less than a step away from the collision. F2 isn't lowering anything. @Thunderheads is spot on here. Heck his eyes are still looking toward centerfield...but #1 looks like Ray Lewis prepared to lower the boom! 

 

Slide.jpg

thanks John ....   yeah, that F2 really looks like he's ready to lower his shoulder into this guy :rolleyes:

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If you want to play that game then consider that if you jump in front of a train it isn't the train's fault if you get hit.

Catcher's fault.

Stop always blaming the runner.

 

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4 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

If you want to play that game then consider that if you jump in front of a train it isn't the train's fault if you get hit.

Catcher's fault.

Stop always blaming the runner.

 

wow 

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3 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

If you want to play that game then consider that if you jump in front of a train it isn't the train's fault if you get hit.

Catcher's fault.

Stop always blaming the runner.

 

Nobody is "always" blaming the runner.    They're just blaming the runner in this scenario who certainly looks like he moved into F2.

If F2 had lowered his shoulder or braced him self for impact, the collision likely goes the other way.

I played catcher...I can tell you the times where I actually had time to brace myself for impact, the base runner, without exception, bounced off me and landed flat on his back...I had one actually look up at me while lying spread eagle on the ground and say "yeah, that was a bad idea".    I helped him up, patted his back and said, with a smile, "just remember, we both gotta work tomorrow."   On every occasion, the base runner was tossed...one of of those occasions, the tossed base runner left on a stretcher.

I didn't raise my elbows, or drive my shoulders into them...I braced, with my glove (with ball) in front of me - believe it or not, I'm still thinking about the tag - with my other hand holding the glove - and taking most of the impact with my arms, with my center of gravity low and legs/feet holding me in place.

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MAYBE the runner could not avoid contact. But he never even tried to. He ran THRU the catcher, that's what makes this MC.

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12 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

In an effort to maximize the value of this clip. Please show me where the runner attempted to avoid the collision in this .gif

 

Animated_GIF-source.gif

Okay help me out here guys, because I could certainly be wrong about this. 

R1 doesn't avoid the collision, I'll give you that. But he also didn't go out of his way to seek out F2. F2 moved into his path. Now, if you guys have him launching into F2, that's an argument worth hearing. Although I'd argue that the side view shows that he didn't launch into F2. F2 has no right to be where he is. He can't impede the progress of the runner without the ball, which is why we have the obstruction that we all agree on. But watch how late F2 runs into foul territory. Do you honestly think that F2 had time to process the adjustment and run 3-4 steps around him? I think that's an unreasonable expectation. 

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3 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Okay help me out here guys, because I could certainly be wrong about this. 

R1 doesn't avoid the collision, I'll give you that. But he also didn't go out of his way to seek out F2. F2 moved into his path. Now, if you guys have him launching into F2, that's an argument worth hearing. Although I'd argue that the side view shows that he didn't launch into F2. F2 has no right to be where he is. He can't impede the progress of the runner without the ball, which is why we have the obstruction that we all agree on. But watch how late F2 runs into foul territory. Do you honestly think that F2 had time to process the adjustment and run 3-4 steps around him? I think that's an unreasonable expectation. 

No... No one is saying that he needed to take 3-4 steps around him... but what we are saying is that he needed to make, at least, an attempt to avoid the collision. There is nothing in his actions that indicate ANY attempt to avoid the collision. 

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2 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

No... No one is saying that he needed to take 3-4 steps around him... but what we are saying is that he needed to make, at least, an attempt to avoid the collision. There is nothing in his actions that indicate ANY attempt to avoid the collision. 

Does he have to when the catcher moves into his way at the last moment? 

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2 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Does he have to when the catcher moves into his way at the last moment? 

But it wasn't at the last moment. The catcher started moving 3 steps before contact. If it was legit at the very last moment... Then yes I would agree with you. 

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2 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

But it wasn't at the last moment. The catcher started moving 3 steps before contact. If it was legit at the very last moment... Then yes I would agree with you. 

Three steps at full speed isn't enough time to make a 3-4 foot adjustment. Where do you want R1 to go? F2 moved right between him and the plate, I don't think it's reasonable to expect R1 to recognize that and make a significant adjustment in three steps. 

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5 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Three steps at full speed isn't enough time to make a 3-4 foot adjustment. Where do you want R1 to go? F2 moved right between him and the plate, I don't think it's reasonable to expect R1 to recognize that and make a significant adjustment in three steps. 

Again... not asking him to actually make that large of an adjustment. Just make at attempt to make SOME adjustment. 

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5 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Again... not asking him to actually make that large of an adjustment. Just make at attempt to make SOME adjustment. 

But is he required to? 

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7 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

I don't think it's reasonable to expect R1 to recognize that and make a significant adjustment in three steps.

Make a significant adjustment to his path, probably not.  Make a significant adjustment to his lean and upper body rotation, certainly.

He pulled his arms in, leaned forward, rotated his upper body, dropped his shoulder, and drove through F2 all in a matter of a step and a half.  If he extends his arms, has a backward lean, or tries to duck away, he's safe on OBS.  If he loads up and leads with his shoulder and elbow at chest height, then he's out for MC.

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