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Guest MaxG

Base running after being awarded two bases

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Guest MaxG

Runner is one first base. He starts stealing second base but decides to go back to first. The ball goes from catcher to second baseman. Second baseman tries to pick up the runner going back to first but throws it in the stands.

The runner goes to second and stops there. Then he thought he had to go back to first so he starts running back towards first base but he never reaches it.

The referee awards him 2 bases and tells him to go to third. So the runner is between first and second (last base touched is second base) and starts running directly towards third base (passes near the mound, not following any base line).

The pitcher goes back to the mound and touches his plate. The referee makes a signal and we now have a live ball. The pitchers calls a timeout. He throws to second, making an appeal. The referee calls the runner out. He said he failed to touch second base. When being reminded that the last touched base was second base he said that the runner had to touch it again because he started running back toward first base (even if he never made it back to first base).

There is no rule that says you need to run along the base line. The only rule is that when a fielder is attempting to tag a runner, the runner has to stay on the base path (the base path being a direct line from the runner and the base when a tag is attempted).

To me, there is nothing wrong with that:

  • run from first to second base
  • run back towards first base (but without touching first base)
  • at a point between second and first, turn back and run towards third base

I'd call it weird base running.

So do you think it was a bad call or there is a rule that I'm missing?

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If the pitcher called timeout before his throw to second and it was granted, the question is moot. This is not a live ball appeal.

Assuming no time out, you may call it "weird baserunning" but it doesn't change the fact that the baserunner must touch all bases on an award. Runner out. The end. It's not about the baseline. It's about touching ALL bags in the award.

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It's pretty clear to me from the description that the runner's intent was to return to first and not to take some "weird baserunning" route to third.  Make him touch second or be subject to appeal.

 

Also,

1 hour ago, Guest MaxG said:

The referee awards him

???

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1 hour ago, Guest MaxG said:

I'd call it weird base running.

So do you think it was a bad call or there is a rule that I'm missing?

I'd call it a weird account of a correct call. For one thing, I'd guess that F1 disengaged before appealing, and did not request time (which would have prevented his appealing the missed base).

The applicable concept is "last time by": when a runner passes a base (very often 2B) in different directions multiple times during play, he is required to touch the base on the last time by. If he does so, that corrects any prior misses of the base.

If he does not do so, even having touched during a prior pass, then he is liable to be out on proper appeal. As I understand the OP, that's what happened, and the call is correct.

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6 hours ago, maven said:

I'd call it a weird account of a correct call. For one thing, I'd guess that F1 disengaged before appealing, and did not request time (which would have prevented his appealing the missed base).

The applicable concept is "last time by": when a runner passes a base (very often 2B) in different directions multiple times during play, he is required to touch the base on the last time by. If he does so, that corrects any prior misses of the base.

If he does not do so, even having touched during a prior pass, then he is liable to be out on proper appeal. As I understand the OP, that's what happened, and the call is correct.

If I understood you, @maven, if F1 calls "time," it would forfeit his right to appeal?

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3 minutes ago, Nic said:

If I understood you, @maven, if F1 calls "time," it would forfeit his right to appeal?

Not forfeit, just postpone. In most codes, the ball must be live in order to appeal a baserunning infraction (FED is the main exception, as it allows both live- and dead-ball appeals).

When the umpire (not F1) calls time, the defense can't appeal until the ball next becomes live.

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Guest MaxG
7 hours ago, maven said:

I'd call it a weird account of a correct call. For one thing, I'd guess that F1 disengaged before appealing, and did not request time (which would have prevented his appealing the missed base).

The applicable concept is "last time by": when a runner passes a base (very often 2B) in different directions multiple times during play, he is required to touch the base on the last time by. If he does so, that corrects any prior misses of the base.

If he does not do so, even having touched during a prior pass, then he is liable to be out on proper appeal. As I understand the OP, that's what happened, and the call is correct.

Thank you for your answers guys. These are the only bases that were touched by the runner (in this order):

1) 1B

2) 2B

3) 3B

The only problem that I see is that he ran towards first base (without reaching it) before running the third.

See this: http://sketchtoy.com/68688169

Seems legal, no? What rules prevent you to do that. Nobody was trying to tag the runner so the base path rule doesn't apply.

 

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47 minutes ago, Guest MaxG said:

Seems legal, no? What rules prevent you to do that.

When you retreat back toward a previous base (1B) the force is reinstated (if applicable) and you must touch any subsequent bases (2B) again when you advance.  That is the "last time by" which was discussed above.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Guest MaxG said:

Thank you for your answers guys. These are the only bases that were touched by the runner (in this order):

1) 1B

2) 2B

3) 3B

The only problem that I see is that he ran towards first base (without reaching it) before running the third.

See this: http://sketchtoy.com/68688169

Seems legal, no? What rules prevent you to do that. Nobody was trying to tag the runner so the base path rule doesn't apply.

 

Gotta admit, clicking on a link called "sketch toy" made me a little nervous. 

OBR 5.06 (b) Advancing Bases

(1) In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.06(c). In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base.

Once the runner retreats behind second base, as he did on his way back to first, he must touch second base again before advancing to third base. 

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5 hours ago, Guest MaxG said:

Seems legal, no?

It might seem legal to you, but presumably you came here to ask whether this appearance is correct.

As numerous umpires have told you, it is not.

You are free to ignore the answers that everyone so far has given to you, but I recommend not trying to argue against the entire forum based on your guess about what the rules mean.

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Guest MaxG
24 minutes ago, maven said:

It might seem legal to you, but presumably you came here to ask whether this appearance is correct.

As numerous umpires have told you, it is not.

You are free to ignore the answers that everyone so far has given to you, but I recommend not trying to argue against the entire forum based on your guess about what the rules mean.

Challenging people opinions is healthy no? 

I'm actually looking for the specific rule and so far all I got was opinions. 

Stk posted an actual rule and I thank him for that.

Oh and by the way you can't eject me! Here I can argue! :P

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10 minutes ago, Guest MaxG said:

Challenging people opinions is healthy no? 

It's not opinion, it's the rule

I'm actually looking for the specific rule and so far all I got was opinions. 

You got it, as you mention below.

Stk posted an actual rule and I thank him for that.

Oh and by the way you can't eject me! Here I can argue! :P

Don't bet on it.

 

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We may not always quote a specific rule number when we respond here, but generally speaking, the answers here are correct? Why? The expertise here would astound most people. We strive to "get it right" and we'll call each other out (get that?) in a heartbeat when an incorrect answer or interpretation is given.

I dare say that everyone here has learned at least something by being here as often as most of are. We are quite fortunate to have a community like this of like-minded and like mutual interest professionals where, for the most part except in time of jesting; egos get checked at the door.

Come here anytime and you can get your question(s) answered. If it's baseball related, you'll get a straight answer here. Guaranteed. You may not always like the answer and you might not always agree with it, but the one thing you can count on it that it will be right in the end, and usually pretty early on. ;)

Forgive our somtimes sarcasm. It's part of the job. :D

Don't be a stranger.

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15 hours ago, Guest MaxG said:

Second baseman tries to pick up the runner going back to first but throws it in the stands. Ball is now Dead.

The runner goes to second and stops there. Runner has touched 2B. Then he thought he had to go back to first so he starts running back towards first base but he never reaches itIrrelevant, as the ball is Dead. 

The referee awards him 2 bases and tells him to go to third. So the runner is between first and second (last base touched is second base) and starts running directly towards third base (passes near the mound, not following any base line). Again, inconsequential as the ball is Dead, provided he already touched 2B.

If the sequence of events is exactly as you describe, then the umpire booted this one. If the Runner is standing on 2B when the ball goes out of play (is Dead), or touches 2B just after the ball goes out of play, then he has satisfied the requirements of touching 2B. Which direction he runs is completely inconsequential, because the ball is Dead.

It all hinges on when the ball went out of play in relation to where the Runner is. If, however, the Runner was definitely headed back to 1B when the ball went out of play, then yes, all my colleagues (and the Umpire at the game) have been correct.

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15 hours ago, Guest MaxG said:

Thank you for your answers guys. These are the only bases that were touched by the runner (in this order):

1) 1B

2) 2B

3) 3B

The only problem that I see is that he ran towards first base (without reaching it) before running the third.

See this: http://sketchtoy.com/68688169

Seems legal, no? What rules prevent you to do that. Nobody was trying to tag the runner so the base path rule doesn't apply.

 

Sure, but you can't take one part of the rule book out of context wiothout reading the other parts.  And, the rule book doesn't always say exactly what it means or mean exactly what it says (it's "not written by lawyers for lawyers but by gentlemen for gentlemen.")

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On 7/13/2018 at 8:56 PM, Guest MaxG said:

Challenging people opinions is healthy no? 

I'm actually looking for the specific rule and so far all I got was opinions. 

Stk posted an actual rule and I thank him for that.

Oh and by the way you can't eject me! Here I can argue! :P

In some sense it's a judgment call...if the runner looks like he's retreating to first...then he's retreating to first, and must retouch second base.  

Yes, the base runner chooses his path, but there are some guard rails there - he must run the bases in order in both directions, he can't return to or towards the dugout (or do anything that indicates - again, judgment - he has abandoned any attempt to run the bases),  and he can't run three feet off the base path to avoid a tag, for a few examples.

So, unless this runner habitually runs in large looping circles into the outfield and in random directions as he runs the bases (as you would see in the first years of tee-ball), 99.999% of umpires are going to judge that this runner is retreating, and must retouch second.

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