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Guest RLCGB Ump

Hi-fiving with on-deck batter during live ball

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Guest RLCGB Ump

Youth game, played under NFHS rules. R2 on second, ball hit to the outfield. R2 rounds third and on his way home gives a high-five to the on-deck batter before crossing the plate. Again, this was a live-ball hit to the outfield, not a home run. The umpire calls the runner out for contact with the on-deck batter while ball was live. Correct ruling? 

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Not correct. There was no assistance, there was no play on the runner. All there was was an official trying to insert himself in a game where he didn't belong.

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Every time I see even the words "High -Five" in the heading I cringe..........

Not illegal...........not assistance..............not excusable for an umpire to call this an out..........

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String them up and eject them all. How dare these kids think this is a game! oh, wait...

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1 hour ago, Richvee said:

There was no assistance,

 

49 minutes ago, Stan W. said:

not assistance

Even if it were, assistance by a teammate is not illegal. We clearly need to be careful what we mention in this context!

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6 minutes ago, maven said:

 

Even if it were, assistance by a teammate is not illegal. We clearly need to be careful what we mention in this context!

I know the rule specifically talks about the base coach assisting the runner.  And another rule/ruling says that a runner can assist another runner.

But is there a rule or interpretation that on deck batters, retired runners, teammates on the bench, head coaches, managers, mascots, and bat boys can run off the bench and assist a base runner who has, for example, fallen?

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52 minutes ago, maven said:

 

Even if it were, assistance by a teammate is not illegal. We clearly need to be careful what we mention in this context!

I would be if the teammate was a retired runner as in the MLB sit where a scored runner pushed the following runner back to the plate. 

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From the 2015 NFHS Case Book:

3.3.1 SITUATION A:  Score tied and R3. B2 hits single to right. R3 scores and several players leave dugout to congratulate R3. RULING:  At the end of playing action, the umpire will issue a warning to the coach of the team at bat and eject the next offender. If a warning has already been issued all players leaving the bench/dugout area will be ejected.

3.3.1 SITUATION B:  B1 hits a single and the batboy runs out to retrieve the bat. Should the batboy be ejected? RULING:  No, the intent is to limit offensive players from flooding the plate area and possibly interfering with play around home plate.

3.3.1 SITUATION D:  The home team, having previously been given a warning for players approaching home to congratulate a teammate while the ball was still live and in play, Smith and Black rush out to “high-five” Jones who just scored on a sacrifice fly. RULING:  Following the end of playing action, the umpire-in-chief will inform the home team that Smith and Black are ejected for leaving the dugout during a live ball…

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To answer Mr. beerguy55’s question:

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  No member of the offensive team, other than another runner running the bases, can physically assist a runner in advancing or returning to a base. (2016 BRD, p. 217)

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5 hours ago, lawump said:

:banghead:

Any chance a Compendium of Dispelled Myths can be published?

This is one of those myths that appears in NFHS games especially because it can be rationalized (falsely) as Assistance, but it is reactively triggered as sportsmanship and hurt feelings (taunting).

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5 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2015 NFHS Case Book:

3.3.1 SITUATION A:  Score tied and R3. B2 hits single to right. R3 scores and several players leave dugout to congratulate R3. RULING:  At the end of playing action, the umpire will issue a warning to the coach of the team at bat and eject the next offender. If a warning has already been issued all players leaving the bench/dugout area will be ejected.

3.3.1 SITUATION B:  B1 hits a single and the batboy runs out to retrieve the bat. Should the batboy be ejected? RULING:  No, the intent is to limit offensive players from flooding the plate area and possibly interfering with play around home plate.

3.3.1 SITUATION D:  The home team, having previously been given a warning for players approaching home to congratulate a teammate while the ball was still live and in play, Smith and Black rush out to “high-five” Jones who just scored on a sacrifice fly. RULING:  Following the end of playing action, the umpire-in-chief will inform the home team that Smith and Black are ejected for leaving the dugout during a live ball…

All well and good. However, the OP mentions only an on deck batter. No one left the dugout.

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Thanks for pointing that out, Mr. Richvee. In the words of a very early Kinks song, “you really got me!”

Let’s see--what exactly was asked in the OP?—“The umpire calls the runner out for contact with the on-deck batter while ball was live. Correct ruling?”

I did not read that to mean the runner was assisted in any way by the on-deck batter. In fact, according to the description in the OP it was the scoring R2 who high-fived the on-deck batter (who should not have been there). The umpire made an out call because of that contact which, of course, we all know is MSUing.

Since no one else provided any rule, interpretation, or case play to refute the umpire in the OP, I tried to do that with the three case plays from the FED case book. If you had read those plays you would have seen that even though they are not precisely on point, they do provide some help in proving the on-field call was wrong. For example, in the second play, it states, “No, the intent is to limit offensive players from flooding the plate area and possibly interfering with play around home plate.”

And in the third play, it actually mentions high five and what the penalty is for that act by offensive teammates. Don’t you agree that refutes the on-field call?

In addition, there are at least three other FED case plays showing that mere contact between teammates is not penalized with an out call.

 

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17 hours ago, maven said:

 

Even if it were, assistance by a teammate is not illegal. We clearly need to be careful what we mention in this context!

excellent point....

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23 minutes ago, Stan W. said:

excellent point....

Except it is not correct. Did you read the Wendelstedt cite above or remember a FED caseplay/interp? This is regarding actual assistance of course which did not happen in the OP.

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22 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Except it is not correct. Did you read the Wendelstedt cite above or remember a FED caseplay/interp? This is regarding actual assistance of course which did not happen in the OP.

The game in the OP was played using FED. Wendelstedt is irrelevant. My answer to the question as posted was correct.

The FED rulings posted concern teammates entering live-ball territory during play, which is indeed illegal but also irrelevant.

Provided a teammate who is permitted to be on the field during play, such as another runner or the ODB, does not interfere, nothing in FED prohibits such a player assisting a runner. Only coaches are prohibited from doing so.

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15 minutes ago, maven said:

The game in the OP was played using FED. Wendelstedt is irrelevant. My answer to the question as posted was correct.

The FED rulings posted concern teammates entering live-ball territory during play, which is indeed illegal but also irrelevant.

Provided a teammate who is permitted to be on the field during play, such as another runner or the ODB, does not interfere, nothing in FED prohibits such a player assisting a runner. Only coaches are prohibited from doing so.

I think FED adopted Wendelstedt's point of view based on this 2013 interp:

"SITUATION 11: On a base hit to the outfield, the runner from third base comes home but misses touching home plate. The on-deck batter physically stops him and shoves him back to the plate, where he then touches it. RULING:Physical assistance by a teammate is not allowed unless both players are viable runners. The assisted runner is out and his run does not count. (2-21-1c, 5-1-2f, 3-2-2)"

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34 minutes ago, maven said:

giphy.gif

That interp and the MLB occurrence got me thinking, dangerous thing. I'll start a coach assist topic under rule rather than take this one off the rails.

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