Appeal calls

[Guest Kef]

Runners on 1st and 2nd, ground ball hit to 3rd base towards SS side. 3B fields ball, turns body to throw to 1st base (BALL IN HAND), realizes runner is coming to 3rd. Turns and chases runner to apply tag. Tags runner with glove but ball is still in fielders hand, no where near the glove. Field umpire calls runner out. 3B coach wants appeal to home plate umpire. Home plate ump says you can not appeal unless field ump asks. Field ump refuses to even talk to home plate umpire for a second opinion. Home plate umpire says there are only 3 appealable calls, 1)fly ball catch 2) foot off the bag 3) and a TAG play. Is this correct? And if this is correct, why couldn't this play be appealed?

[Tborze]

1. Runner left too soon

2. Missed base

3. Check swing

[noumpere]

This isn't an "appeal" play, it's "shopping for a second opinion."

If I'm the PU, I'm trying like heck to get the BU to come to me, and I'm showing him that I have additional information.  But, it *is* up to BU.

 

This is right from OBR:  No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with
another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire
making it.

[Rich Ives]

Try to get the BU to say he knew the ball wasn't in the glove but that it's still an out.  If you succeed then you have a rules misinterpretation and you can formally protest the call. 

 

 

[ricka56]

34 minutes ago, Guest Kef said:

Home plate umpire says there are only 3 appealable calls, 1)fly ball catch 2) foot off the bag 3) and a TAG play. Is this correct? And if this is correct, why couldn't this play be appealed?

There are two kinds of appeals in baseball.
1. Appeal plays, such as missed base, missed retouch, batting out of order. Usually no umpire conference occurs.
2. Appeal of an umpire decision. A coach may make an appeal to the umpire making the call to get help on the play, but it is solely up to the calling umpire whether to grant this appeal to get help. Any decision can theoretically be appeal requested (blue, can I ask you to get help on that strike call...ha). 

[Mudisfun]

1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

Try to get the BU to say he knew the ball wasn't in the glove but that it's still an out.  If you succeed then you have a rules misinterpretation and you can formally protest the call. 

 

 

^^^^ this.

BUT be very careful on how you go about this as there is a very good chance that you will be engaged in an argument and will be protesting from the parking lot.

Sometimes people see what they want to see. If the BU 'KNOWS' he saw the tag, there is little you will do to convince him that he might be wrong. If your coaches have been fishing all game, arguing calls or making a bunch of cat calls for 6 innings, there is little chance that he is now going to go to his partner for you. Boy who cried wolf syndrome.

[Guest Kef]

I am one of the coaches. None of us " have been fishing all game, arguing calls or cat calls" for sure. If we disagree, one of 2 things happen. Either ask "for our information" in between innings what was seen by the coaches and what was the umpires view of the play. And if we disagree, how is the correct way to handle or discuss? Or call time after the play and speak with the home plate umpire to see if the two umpires are willing to discuss. This particular play ended the game, which was approaching the 2 hour time limit, and the field ump moved quickly to exit the field. I know and have seen plenty of whiny coaches, every call and every play. Sometimes the $50 for a 12U game just isn't enough for a ump to put up with a bad coaching staff. But...when a  questionable call changes the game or ends it, don't the players deserve at least a chat with the home plate umpire to hear if he seen the play the way the field umpire seen it? We tell our players to do your job to the best of your ability. They deserve the same. We understand that this might of been the umpires 2nd or 3rd game of the day, in 80 degree heat, etc. But again, the job is to get the call correct.

[beerguy55]

3 minutes ago, Guest Kef said:

But...when a  questionable call changes the game or ends it, don't the players deserve at least a chat with the home plate umpire to hear if he seen the play the way the field umpire seen it?

Only if the base ump decides so.  The base ump has the call.  If he's sure of himself, he can stick with it.  It's only questionable in your mind, not his.   If one ump went to the other ump every time a coach wanted a second opinion games would last forever.

Yes, some umps need less fragile egos, but the majority of them will recognize if they didn't have the optimal view and ask for help.

Believe it or not, getting the call right isn't the most important outcome...following the process so it's fair and consistent is more important.   Wrong calls will be made - as long as those even out over the long term (and they do), a minimal error rate is acceptable.   Except for the indisputably obvious instance of the ball being on the ground, I never want to see an umpire at second base going to the umpire behind home plate for more information on a tag play, let alone changing their call...even if it is "right".

[CJK]

12 minutes ago, Guest Kef said:

And if we disagree, how is the correct way to handle or discuss?

Mike, can we have time?
<walk calmly to the calling umpire and stand NEXT to him/her, not facing him/her>
I know you saw the tag with the glove, but did you see the ball in the bare hand during the tag?
Do you mind checking with your partner to see if s/he had it?

If I make that call, and you come running out, or holler at me from across the field, or try to go to my partner, or want to alpha me in any way, I will be INCREDIBLY unreceptive to almost anything you say or ask.  If you come to me calmly and respectfully, like a grown up should, I can listen to you say or ask almost anything, and I'm likely to want to help.  It's human nature.

[lawump]

20 minutes ago, Guest Kef said:

don't the players deserve at least a chat with the home plate umpire to hear if he seen the play the way the field umpire seen it? 

No. 

First, you need to learn proper protocol (and I say this knowing that there are plenty of 12U umpires who don't know proper protocol, either).  Proper protocol is that you go to the calling umpire (not to the other umpire).  In the case of the OP, you go to the base umpire and ask him if he had what you saw.  If I was the plate umpire in the OP and you came to me, I'm am going to stop you in the middle of your complaint and tell you, "go talk to him.  Its his call."  

Now, when you talk to the base umpire you might say, for example, "sir, did you notice that the ball was in his hand when he tagged him with the glove?"  Then, see what the umpire says in response.  If he misquotes the rule (see the posts above in this thread), then you should protest right then and there.  (ASIDE (here's a little secret):  If you lodge a valid protest (meaning you're protesting a misapplication of the rules and not "protesting" an umpire's judgment), then umpire training requires the umpires to get together and discuss the play.)

However, if the umpire says, "I am positive he had the ball in his glove when he tagged him," then you are SOL.  Neither you nor your players have the right to get another umpire's opinion about the calling umpire's judgment.  First, by rule, no umpire is allowed to overrule another umpire's judgment decision.  This begs the question of what would you do if the plate umpire did, in fact, tell you that he would have made a different call than the base umpire?  It doesn't matter because the plate umpire can't overrule the base umpire anyways.  That's one of the reasons why we (umpires) don't interject ourselves in another umpire's judgment call (with some very rare exceptions)...it would just be a waste of time.  If the calling umpire doesn't want to change his judgment call, no one has the power to overrule him.  Therefore, no game participant has the right to get another umpire's opinion of the calling umpire's judgment call.

[jjb]

"But...when a  questionable call changes the game or ends it, don't the players deserve at least a chat with the home plate umpire to hear if he seen the play the way the field umpire seen it? We tell our players to do your job to the best of your ability. They deserve the same. We understand that this might of been the umpires 2nd or 3rd game of the day, in 80 degree heat, etc. But again, the job is to get the call correct".

No, they don't. In fact, if the Home Plate Umpire engages you at all about the play without the Base Umpire's permission, he has violated Rule 8.02(c):  "No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it".

That's what we're trying to tell you: you have to ask the Umpire making the call to get help, and it's up to him to get it or not. 

The best way to start the conversation is ask him "what did you see?" This will give you the information you need. If he answers "I saw the tag with the ball in the glove", then you can ask him to check, as you saw the ball in the other hand. If, "however, he answers "It was in the other hand, but still an out", now you've got something to protest. And, it's got to happen when it happens..