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johnnyg08

OBS at Home Plate then Malicious Contact

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Are there any other FED case plays dealing with obstruction and malicious contact on a runner attempting to score at home plate other than what I've listed below? If so, please chime in w/ what you have. In this case, I'm looking for specifically things contained within the Fed Rule & Case Books. Thanks! 

 

Rule

8-4-2e1

e. initiates malicious contact;

1. Malicious contact always supersedes obstruction. Runner(s) will be awarded appropriate base(s) per umpire's judgment.

 
Case Play:
 
3.3.1 DD

R3 is advancing to home and initiates malicious contact with F2, who is standing out of the baseline. F2 does not have the ball, and there is no play at the plate. 

RULING: This is considered to be interference, and the ball is dead immediately. R3 is declared out, and because the act is malicious, R3 is also ejected from the game. Any other runners must return to the bases they last touched at the time of the interference. If the declaring of a dead-ball prevented the defense from completing an obvious double play, the umpire shall award the additional out.

3.3.1 SITUATION EE:

Upon rounding second, R1 maliciously runs into F6 who is (a) in the baseline or (b) not in the baseline.

RULING: In (a), the malicious contact supersedes the obstruction. In (a) and (b), R1 is out and is also to be ejected because of the unsportsmanlike act.

*3.3.1 SITUATION II: 

With no outs, and R2 on second base, B2 hits the ball in the gap, R2 touches and rounds third and heads for home, and initiates malicious contact with F2 a) before touching the plate, or b) after scoring. 

RULING: In (a) the ball is dead, the runner is out and ejected for malicious contact. In (b) the run counts, the ball is dead and the runner is ejected for malicious contact. In either case the batter-runner must return to the last legally acquired base at the time of the malicious contact.

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I think you covered it. 

Just keep in mind... MC beats out OBS, so MC prior to the runner scoring, time, out, EJ, no run scores. After the plate, score the run, time, EJ, no out since the runner is no longer 'live'.

 

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32 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

I think you covered it. 

Just keep in mind... MC beats out OBS, so MC prior to the runner scoring, time, out, EJ, no run scores. After the plate, score the run, time, EJ, no out since the runner is no longer 'live'.

 

Except that this could also be INT, so you might get an out on another runner.

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There must have been some serious contact if "the runner is no longer "live":wacko:

 

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54 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

After the plate, score the run, time, EJ, no out since the runner is no longer 'live'.

 

Unless the MC occurs as part of a force play slide rule violation.  Then, the run does not count and that runner is "out".

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9 hours ago, lawump said:

Unless the MC occurs as part of a force play slide rule violation.  Then, the run does not count and that runner is "out".

*8.4.2 SITUATION W: The bases are loaded with (a), less than two outs, or (b), two outs. B5 hits a ground ball to F4, who throws to F2 for the force out at home. The throw pulls F2 off home plate several steps toward the first-base side. R3, seeing F2 ready to make a play on B5 at first base, touches home plate and maliciously crashes into F2.

RULING: (a) Since this is a force-play situation, R3 and B5 are declared out and no one scores. R3 will be ejected from the game. In (b), R3 will be declared out and ejected for the contact, and no run will score.

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On 7/3/2018 at 10:00 PM, maven said:

*8.4.2 SITUATION W: The bases are loaded with (a), less than two outs, or (b), two outs. B5 hits a ground ball to F4, who throws to F2 for the force out at home. The throw pulls F2 off home plate several steps toward the first-base side. R3, seeing F2 ready to make a play on B5 at first base, touches home plate and maliciously crashes into F2.

RULING: (a) Since this is a force-play situation, R3 and B5 are declared out and no one scores. R3 will be ejected from the game. In (b), R3 will be declared out and ejected for the contact, and no run will score.

You might know the guy who got this play put in the casebook.  LOL

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4 hours ago, lawump said:

You might know the guy who got this play put in the casebook.  LOL

Indeed: I believe I quoted his post earlier in the thread. If you'll pardon the French, we could call it an homage. ;)

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On 7/5/2018 at 6:37 AM, lawump said:

You might know the guy who got this play put in the casebook.  LOL

We do? Heck... if you see him. Make sure to let us know.

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The following language appeared as a FED Point of Emphasis in 2014--

Contact or a collision is considered to be malicious if:

The contact is the result of intentional excessive force;

The contact occurs close to the bag or home plate or above the waist of the receiving player; or

There was intent to injure.

Malicious contact can occur without these conditions if determined by the umpire, but these provide a starting point.

 

Carl Childress stated in the 2016 edition of his BRD that this text “must rise to the level of case book interpretation.” He went on to say that at that point in time the FED had made malicious contact a POE 15 times in the last 34 years.

Also, NFHS rule 3-3-1m and the following penalty mention malicious contact.

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Well, just a few weeks later we have obstruction, then malicious contact in a FED play at the plate. In this clip it appears a though the umpire did not judge malicious contact though...we can see him calling obstruction and awarding home plate to the runner. In my opinion, this play has no business in NFHS or NCAA baseball. 

There is another thread on that particular play...but this clip is absolutely relevant to the discussion we were having here. 

 

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Show the OTHER angle where F2 moves into the runners path. 

As @Rich Ives may say...too many umpires put the onus on the runner. :excl:

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2 hours ago, Tborze said:

Show the OTHER angle where F2 moves into the runners path. 

As @Rich Ives may say...too many umpires put the onus on the runner. :excl:

The onus is on the runner. He has a ball traveling in the air thrown by somebody else that he has to catch. The runner has to simply go around him OR even simpler, not launch into him. 

It's not a problem to require the runner to get out of the way and we will simply call obstruction. Rich would fight the other way if it was his catcher. So there's that. 

That play has no business in high school baseball. Those times are done. 

There are a few more angles at the end of this clip
 

 

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Hadn't seen the rear angle before!  The PU's angle didn't look as vicious. WOW! 

In real time though, I wouldn't have had MC as PU.  

Couldnt they have got together as a crew and ruled MC?

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I posted on this play in the Free For All section.  My best guess is that U1 (who rotated to the plate here) got so amped up to make a big OBS call in a State game, he rushed the call and did not "pause, read, and react", to get the MC.  You can see him almost giving the old DDB signal before contact even occurs.  After he rushed, he died with his premature call on the field and stuck with it, perhaps knowing instantly he missed the MC.  

 

Furthermore, in this particular play, if there was no MC, there was no reason to make the award like he did, because the runner DOES touch the plate and score after the collision.  He was signaling the run scored before the runner touches, voiding any possibility for the defense to appeal if for some reason he fails to do so.  

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12 minutes ago, humanbackstop19 said:

I posted on this play in the Free For All section.  My best guess is that U1 (who rotated to the plate here) got so amped up to make a big OBS call in a State game, he rushed the call and did not "pause, read, and react", to get the MC.  You can see him almost giving the old DDB signal before contact even occurs.  After he rushed, he died with his premature call on the field and stuck with it, perhaps knowing instantly he missed the MC.  

 

Furthermore, in this particular play, if there was no MC, there was no reason to make the award like he did, because the runner DOES touch the plate and score after the collision.  He was signaling the run scored before the runner touches, voiding any possibility for the defense to appeal if for some reason he fails to do so.  

Thanks for posting in in Free for All. My intent was to add content to this thread since it was directly relevant to the discussion we were having here. Thank you for your contributions. 

I put together a .gif from essentially the 3B coaches box, which gives us a pretty good look at the runners intent. He appears to have at least six steps prior to impact where we could have made some sort of attempt to avoid a violent collision. 

 

Animated_GIF-source.gif

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1 minute ago, johnnyg08 said:

Thanks for posting in in Free for All. My intent was to add content to this thread since it was directly relevant to the discussion we were having here. Thank you for your contributions. 

I put together a .gif from essentially the 3B coaches box, which gives us a pretty good look at the runners intent. He appears to have at least six steps prior to impact where we could have made some sort of attempt to avoid a violent collision. 

 

Animated_GIF-source.gif

100 % agree!  Hope it didn't seem like I was justifying anything.  Perfect angle to see this........thank you local sports news!

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2 minutes ago, humanbackstop19 said:

100 % agree!  Hope it didn't seem like I was justifying anything.  Perfect angle to see this........thank you local sports news!

Not at all, but there are some who wouldn't call anything but OBS in this play and I am baffled by that. If this play isn't MC, I'm not sure why we have it in the rule book? And to take it a bit further, this is a great clip for learning. It has nothing to do w/ the umpire in the field and the decision he made. The goal here is for all of us to learn and get these plays right in the future.  

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Horrible call by the 1B umpire at the plate.  Watch the catcher's helmet.  The force was so violent it knocked his helmet from his head.

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Watch the runners helmet. But to your point, what was his helmet still doing on?  Is that what they are teaching now?

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1 hour ago, Tborze said:

Watch the runners helmet. But to your point, what was his helmet still doing on?  Is that what they are teaching now?

Absolutely, that's what they're teaching!  The only time a catcher's helmet/mask comes off is when the baseball goes off the bat straight up in the air where they can make a play on it.  Otherwise, it stays on.

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I wish this training would hurry up and make its way to the fields where I work.  I feel like coaches are teaching catchers that my toe is a hat hook and they should hang the helmet on it whenever they can.

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On 7/27/2018 at 11:18 AM, humanbackstop19 said:

Absolutely, that's what they're teaching!  The only time a catcher's helmet/mask comes off is when the baseball goes off the bat straight up in the air where they can make a play on it.  Otherwise, it stays on.

 

On 7/27/2018 at 9:48 AM, Tborze said:

Watch the runners helmet. But to your point, what was his helmet still doing on?  Is that what they are teaching now?

Yup.   Especially the modern full mask/helmet.  If an NHL goalie can pick up 100+ mph slapshots, that get deflected, from less than 40 feet away, without taking off their mask, a catcher can pick up foul balls and throws to the plate.   Taking off the mask is often time consuming and distracting and can often be the difference between making a catch or not, whereas leaving the mask on is very rarely the cause of missing a catch.   Even for balls straight up it's usually better to just leave it on.

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It also helps as an extra barrier during collisions like the one discussed. Otherwise there is a straight shot to the jaw, cheek, or head with no protection.

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