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Guest Dan

Overrunning 1st base

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Guest Dan

Batter hits ball to SS.  SS bobbles ball, picks it up and throws to 1B.  Runner beats throw, and slows down and maintains his lane in foul territory.  Runner never re enters fair territory while on his return to 1B.    Defensive team takes ball and applies tag to runner, still while in foul territory.  Umpire calls runner out.   Right or incorrect call?

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13 hours ago, Daniel Duliba said:

So, this is 12 u baseball.  I'm concluding a pretty soft umpire with s really large ego.  Coaches at u12 have ZERO  chance at getting that far with explaining that detail to 12 year olds, and having them clearly understand it.  I do appreciate everyone's input.   Glad the umpire can go home pumping his chest he called a 12 year old out on this one.  

 

Polite response...

Thank you for coming out... You asked a question about a situation that none of us were there to see and you got the best answers we could give you. But please... continue to blame the umpire for making what could have been a proper call and think he has an ego for it. 

Glad you can come on here, completely oblivious to the rules and interpretations and still try to sound like you're the one in the right here. 

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No missed base.  Umpire said runner may have appeared to make a move toward 2B, despite not re-entering fair territory,  and that made it a judgement call which he has the right to call the runner out

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Don't have to make a move into fair territory to make a move to second. If the umpire judges he made an attempt then he very well may have and thus be liable to be put out. 

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I could understand a re-entry into fair territory.  That should be black and white rule.  Re-entry into fair territory, fine, can be judged to make a move toward next base.   Remaining in foul territory, let an umpire determine the players intent?  It's not the umpires games.......that a really poorly written rule.  

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2 hours ago, Daniel Duliba said:

I could understand a re-entry into fair territory.  That should be black and white rule. 

I'm sure the rules committee would welcome your feedback.  Until then, the rule is pretty clear -- if the umpire judges that the runner made a move toward second (and, especially depending on the level, it doesn't need to be much), then the runner is out.

 

I will point out that the more usual myth is along the lines of "If the runner turns left, he's liable to be out; if he turns right he's safe."  That, too , is false.  JUST a turn doesn't matter; no matter the direction.

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It doesn't matter what anybody thinks the rule should be.  The rule is that if the batter makes any attempt toward 2B he loses his protection and is liable to be put out.

 

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1 hour ago, Daniel Duliba said:

How can any runner that doesnt re enter fair territory be " judged by an umpire" as to his intention?   Why even have rules....let the umpire "judge intentions" for everything.

It's pretty easy to see a move to 2B. Doesn't matter where the runner is when he does it.

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Sooooo... why did the defense tag him?

Surely something prompted them to do so. Our colleague @Tksjewelry already inquired about one of the two reasons – missed touching first base (the BR can still beat the ball there and be called Safe without having touched the base; the impetus is then on the defense to appeal it to the adjacent umpire) – and the info given is that he didn’t miss it...

Sooooo... lemme guess, he turned to the left, didn’t he?

Barring any further fess-up that he twitched, or some other info, then I need to explain something that all baseball participants – players, coaches, and umpires – need to hear about. There are myths within the game, perpetuated and passed from coach to umpire to umpire to coach in a vicious cycle. Ever hear, “Tie goes to the Runner”? Myth. How about that an infield fly is a dead ball? Total myth! Oo, how about the one where if a F3 (1st baseman) is in foul territory, it’s a Balk? Pfffft... complete myth! Well, in this case, the whole “If the BR (Batter-Runner) turns to the left instead of the right on his overrun of 1B, he made a move to 2B! He has to turn to the right to be safe!” is yet another myth.

1 hour ago, Guest Dan said:

Runner beats throw, and slows down and maintains his lane in foul territory.  Runner never re enters fair territory while on his return to 1B. [...] Defensive team takes ball and applies tag to runner, still while in foul territory. […] No missed base.  Umpire said runner may have appeared to make a move toward 2B, despite not re-entering fair territory,  and that made it a judgement call which he has the right to call the runner out.

I crossed out everything that has no bearing on this play / call. Even if you were to discuss this play with the/an umpire, you’d be weakening your position and showing your ignorance if you were to perseverate on this stuff. What remains is rather simple:

  1. Batter-Runner beats throw (ball)? Yes, Safe.
  2. Batter-Runner touches base? Yes, so Safe (still) on an appeal.
  3. Did Batter-Runner return directly and timely to the base? Ah, here’s where judgement comes in.

See, contrary to your sentiments above, the Rules and Umpire Judgement are not mutually exclusive. They are, in fact, mutually dependent on each other. The Rules present the qualifying question, and an umpire’s judgement answers it. So to that third question, the Batter-Runner must have done something that was contrary to the Rule. I’ll grant you, though, that there are plenty of umpires who either don’t thoroughly know the Rules, or they misinterpret the ones they do know. These misinterpretations become the seeds of these myths. Ever hear that a pitcher can’t wear sunglasses? Hate to break the news, but there isn’t a rule against a pitcher wearing sunglasses, so it’s a farflung myth. What a pitcher can’t wear are items that are distracting, and this might include certain types of sunglasses. What decides which glasses or items are distracting? Yup, that thing called umpire judgement.

Each umpire is going to have different slightly different judgement. In the case of this play, Dan, it reads like you happened across an opposing team and an umpire who believe the myth (that a BR has to turn right)... or you yourself missed that the BR made a (slight) move towards 2B.

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9 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Sooooo... why did the defense tag him?

Surely something prompted them to do so. Our colleague @Tksjewelry already inquired about one of the two reasons – missed touching first base (the BR can still beat the ball there and be called Safe without having touched the base; the impetus is then on the defense to appeal it to the adjacent umpire) – and the info given is that he didn’t miss it...

Sooooo... lemme guess, he turned to the left, didn’t he?

Barring any further fess-up that he twitched, or some other info, then I need to explain something that all baseball participants – players, coaches, and umpires – need to hear about. There are myths within the game, perpetuated and passed from coach to umpire to umpire to coach in a vicious cycle. Ever hear, “Tie goes to the Runner”? Myth. How about that an infield fly is a dead ball? Total myth! Oo, how about the one where if a F3 (1st baseman) is in foul territory, it’s a Balk? Pfffft... complete myth! Well, in this case, the whole “If the BR (Batter-Runner) turns to the left instead of the right on his overrun of 1B, he made a move to 2B! He has to turn to the right to be safe!” is yet another myth.

I crossed out everything that has no bearing on this play / call. Even if you were to discuss this play with the/an umpire, you’d be weakening your position and showing your ignorance if you were to perseverate on this stuff. What remains is rather simple:

  1. Batter-Runner beats throw (ball)? Yes, Safe.
  2. Batter-Runner touches base? Yes, so Safe (still) on an appeal.
  3. Did Batter-Runner return directly and timely to the base? Ah, here’s where judgement comes in.

See, contrary to your sentiments above, the Rules and Umpire Judgement are not mutually exclusive. They are, in fact, mutually dependent on each other. The Rules present the qualifying question, and an umpire’s judgement answers it. So to that third question, the Batter-Runner must have done something that was contrary to the Rule. I’ll grant you, though, that there are plenty of umpires who either don’t thoroughly know the Rules, or they misinterpret the ones they do know. These misinterpretations become the seeds of these myths. Ever hear that a pitcher can’t wear sunglasses? Hate to break the news, but there isn’t a rule against a pitcher wearing sunglasses, so it’s a farflung myth. What a pitcher can’t wear are items that are distracting, and this might include certain types of sunglasses. What decides which glasses or items are distracting? Yup, that thing called umpire judgement.

Each umpire is going to have different slightly different judgement. In the case of this play, Dan, it reads like you happened across an opposing team and an umpire who believe the myth (that a BR has to turn right)... or you yourself missed that the BR made a (slight) move towards 2B.

I'm biting my tongue on one of your myths but let's not go off topic.

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The runner can overrun and veer into foul territory, I don't care if he's 10 feet foul, if he makes a jab step towards second then thinks better of it he is no longer a runner that overran first, hes a runner that made an attempt to second and has put hi self in jeopardy. If tagged, I have him out.

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So, this is 12 u baseball.  I'm concluding a pretty soft umpire with s really large ego.  Coaches at u12 have ZERO  chance at getting that far with explaining that detail to 12 year olds, and having them clearly understand it.  I do appreciate everyone's input.   Glad the umpire can go home pumping his chest he called a 12 year old out on this one.  

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5 minutes ago, Daniel Duliba said:

So, this is 12 u baseball.  I'm concluding a pretty soft umpire with s really large ego.  Coaches at u12 have ZERO  chance at getting that far with explaining that detail to 12 year olds, and having them clearly understand it.  I do appreciate everyone's input.   Glad the umpire can go home pumping his chest he called a 12 year old out on this one.  

In other words you don't get it.

How about the three strikes and you're out rule?  That one OK.

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11 minutes ago, Daniel Duliba said:

Coaches at u12 have ZERO  chance at getting that far with explaining that detail to 12 year olds, and having them clearly understand it.

The other team apparently understood the rule.

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55 minutes ago, Daniel Duliba said:

So, this is 12 u baseball.  I'm concluding a pretty soft umpire with s really large ego.  Coaches at u12 have ZERO  chance at getting that far with explaining that detail to 12 year olds, and having them clearly understand it.  I do appreciate everyone's input.   Glad the umpire can go home pumping his chest he called a 12 year old out on this one.  

You come to an umpire site, ask a question, get the answer, don't like the answer, then insult the umpire that made the call. FTR, I have nine year olds that understand this rule and plenty of youth coaches who can effectively teach their kids how to read this play. What other rules would you not like them to enforce?

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1 hour ago, Daniel Duliba said:

Coaches at u12 have ZERO  chance at getting that far with explaining that detail to 12 year olds

yep. This is really some tough stuff to teach.

"When you over run 1B, if you make an attempt towards 2B, you can be tagged out."

That's some hefty detail for a 12 year old.

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I've never seen a 12u team struggle with this rule. I've never seen a any team struggle with this rule.

 

When I've seen it applied, the runner had always made a move toward second.

 

All but one time that I remember, the runner knew the rule and got real sheepish after making the move to second, try to slip back to 1st 'unnoticed.'

 

The one time that didn't happen, the runner, who was on a team I coached, honestly had no idea. He was new to the country, and it was his first time seeing baseball, let alone playing it. He knew he could overrun, but didn't grasp that if he made a move to second... But I dont think it happened again - he knew the rule after that.

 

 

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I've never seen a 12u team struggle with this rule. I've never seen a any team struggle with this rule.

When I've seen it applied, the runner had always made a move toward second.

All but one time that I remember, the runner knew the rule and got real sheepish after making the move to second, try to slip back to 1st 'unnoticed.'

The one time that didn't happen, the runner, who was in a team I coached, honestly had no idea. He was to the country, and it was his first time seeing baseball, let alone playing it. He knew he could overrun, but didn't grasp that if he made a move to second... But I dont think it happened again - he knew the rule after that.

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So, this is 12 u baseball.  I'm concluding a pretty soft umpire with s really large ego.  Coaches at u12 have ZERO  chance at getting that far with explaining that detail to 12 year olds, and having them clearly understand it.  I do appreciate everyone's input.   Glad the umpire can go home pumping his chest he called a 12 year old out on this one.  
The thing is, the umpire's responsibility is to enforce the rules. You're not only asking him not to do that job, but your asking him to selectively decide when to enforce and when to ignore them (I'm assuming that there are some rules you want consistently enforced and others that would fall into this category).

And what makes you think that the umpire went home pumping his chest? Most umpires I know feel bad having to ring a young kid up for a mistake like that, especially if the kid feels he cost his team the game.

Bottom line is, the other team saw it and made the tag. If the umpire doesn't make the call, I bet the other coach would have something to say about it, and he'd be right. So you've got to make the call, you've got to always have the guy thats upset be the guy that's wrong.

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6 hours ago, Daniel Duliba said:

How can any runner that doesnt re enter fair territory be " judged by an umpire" as to his intention?   Why even have rules....let the umpire "judge intentions" for everything.

I'm all in for this:ph34r:

I can see it now, his intention was to throw a strike, "Strike". His intention was to catch it, "Out"!  We now have a solution for shortening games!  

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On 7/1/2018 at 6:42 PM, Daniel Duliba said:

So, this is 12 u baseball.  I'm concluding a pretty soft umpire with s really large ego.  Coaches at u12 have ZERO  chance at getting that far with explaining that detail to 12 year olds, and having them clearly understand it.  I do appreciate everyone's input.   Glad the umpire can go home pumping his chest he called a 12 year old out on this one.  

Considering I was coaching eight year olds that figured out this concept, I'm not sure what the issue is, or why you think 12 year olds won't get it.   If you overrun first base, and veer right 30 feet all the way to the fence, and then run ten steps towards second base, you have indeed made an attempt to second base AND never left foul territory.   I was also taught this concept when I started playing at eight years old, and nobody on my team had a problem with it.   When in doubt, just teach the kids to turn right until they're able to understand more.

I'm not sure what the age has to do with whether or not to call someone out or not.   As a volunteer ump for a community 10U game, I called a batter/runner out for missing home plate on an out of the park home run (modified rules on "out of park"), after the team correctly appealed - yes...the 9 year old catcher actually knew to look for the runner missing the base and do something about it.   Do I ignore the rule to not hurt the kid's feelings, and not upset all the parents who think it's "automatic"?

When your kid gets called out, don't take it personally.   

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On 7/1/2018 at 7:42 PM, Daniel Duliba said:

So, this is 12 u baseball.  I'm concluding a pretty soft umpire with s really large ego.  Coaches at u12 have ZERO  chance at getting that far with explaining that detail to 12 year olds, and having them clearly understand it.  I do appreciate everyone's input.   Glad the umpire can go home pumping his chest he called a 12 year old out on this one.  

I know I'm a little late to this one, but since I'm not working this year, I don't read the site as often.

Coach:  Sorry that it went against you and/or your son, but it IS the rule.  If you don't WANT to know the rule, don't come on a serious umpire board and ask the question.  If you're gonna get defensive and "yeah but" the reply, you're wasting your AND our time.

And if you want to throw passive-agressive insults, I'm your huckleberry:  Glad U12 coaches can go home pumping their chests, thinking they're the next Buck $%#%^# Showalter.  And I've seen enough U12 and/or tournament games to KNOW what I'm saying.

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