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Mudisfun

3-2 steal, ball 4 mechanic

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Working a college summer league game yesterday... R3/R1, 2 out, 3-2 count. I am in C.

R1 breaks on the pitch. From C the pitch looks close, no swing, and F2 comes up throwing... don't know why since batter is either walked or struck out for the 3rd out, but I digress. I do not see or hear a call on the pitch by my partner as I turned with the throw which beat R1 by 5 feet.

Tag is applied and I wait a moment and then just mechanic an out. F6 rolls the ball at the same time R3 heads for home. As the fielders start leaving the field, my partner is calling time and loudly saying, ball 4,, ball 4. We place R2 at 2nd and B/R at 1st, scoring R3 who advanced on the throw.

DHC comes out and wants an explanation as to why R3 scores since he is claiming that my mechanic of calling R2 out hurt the defensive team as they thought they had 3 outs. Now, I know that the defensive team is expected to know the situation, especially F2 who has my plate partner, according to him loudly saying ball 4 several times as F2 comes up to throw. We got together with both coaches since this was a scrimmage and decided that R3 would go back, which I know in a real game is not going to happen.

So mechanically how do I fix this for the future, or should college age players be expected to know what they are doing? In this scenario, either the B/R is walked or out, and any play on R1 is irrelevant since he is either forced on the walk or the inning is over. Would this be an instance is not making any call, possibly calling time, confirming the pitch call with my partner and either saying inning over or pointing to R1 and telling him to stay at 2nd?

 

 

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I would turn my head to see what my partner & BR are doing to get additional info. If BR is jogging to 1st it was a ball and I would give no signal, if he's walking back to the dugout I'd give the out sign. I would be in no big hurry to rush my call until I knew what was going on.

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Note (to yourself) what happened on the tag.  Tell the runner to "stay there."  Turn back to the plate to see what happened on the pitch.  Using that information, make a call (if needed) at second.

 

As to the coach's complaint -- it can work both ways.  Suppose R1 leaves second because he was "out" and then is tagged while off the base -- the defensive coach would now wnat that play to stand.

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47 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

...should college age players be expected to know what they are doing? 

Yes. Although, you should have known as well, wait for the call from the plate. 

We expect the same from our LL players. 

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1 hour ago, Mister B said:

Yes. Although, you should have known as well, wait for the call from the plate. 

We expect the same from our LL players. 

Agreed... this was more directed for F2 who made the needless attempt on R1. My PU was surprised he made the throw.

 

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48 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

So mechanically how do I fix this for the future, or should college age players be expected to know what they are doing?

Mechanically? I would chastise your PU partner about not calling Ball Four! The mysteriousness has got to end!

That being said, @noumpere's advice is good direction. We can employ logic here – if the pitch is Strike 3, then you're all walking off the field, and the throw to 2B is meaningless; similarly, if the pitch is Ball 4, the throw to 2B is (nearly) ineffectual (as you experienced, since the only way it would be valid was if R1 overran/over-slid 2B and was tagged off the bag). So the best thing to do is track the throw, observe and remember what happened, and tell R1 to stay put without a mechanic/signal (unless R1 overran/over-slid and was tagged then). I have to question why a college catcher is throwing on a 3-2 count, with 2 outs, to 2B while there's a runner on 3B! Nothing good can come from that throw.

Let's take this a slightly different direction, @Mudisfun, that takes you completely off the hook. With a 3-2 count, and 2 outs, the catcher (and pitcher) could have assumed that a close payoff pitch was a strike, and tossed the ball back to the mound and started heading towards the dugout. How about that for a stinky stick? Whereas we could see that the DT has a point that PU's lack of making a definitive call put them in a bind (barely tenable), it is a more tenable point than what happened to you! A catcher shouldn't be throwing a ball on a (known) 3-2 count!

 

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10 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

Working a college summer league game yesterday... R3/R1, 2 out, 3-2 count. I am in C.

R1 breaks on the pitch. From C the pitch looks close, no swing, and F2 comes up throwing... don't know why since batter is either walked or struck out for the 3rd out, but I digress. I do not see or hear a call on the pitch by my partner as I turned with the throw which beat R1 by 5 feet.

Tag is applied and I wait a moment and then just mechanic an out. F6 rolls the ball at the same time R3 heads for home. As the fielders start leaving the field, my partner is calling time and loudly saying, ball 4,, ball 4. We place R2 at 2nd and B/R at 1st, scoring R3 who advanced on the throw.

DHC comes out and wants an explanation as to why R3 scores since he is claiming that my mechanic of calling R2 out hurt the defensive team as they thought they had 3 outs. Now, I know that the defensive team is expected to know the situation, especially F2 who has my plate partner, according to him loudly saying ball 4 several times as F2 comes up to throw. We got together with both coaches since this was a scrimmage and decided that R3 would go back, which I know in a real game is not going to happen.

So mechanically how do I fix this for the future, or should college age players be expected to know what they are doing? In this scenario, either the B/R is walked or out, and any play on R1 is irrelevant since he is either forced on the walk or the inning is over. Would this be an instance is not making any call, possibly calling time, confirming the pitch call with my partner and either saying inning over or pointing to R1 and telling him to stay at 2nd?

 

 

can I ask the 1st question?  Why are you in "C" with R1 and R3? you should be in "B"

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

can I ask the 1st question?  Why are you in "C" with R1 and R3? you should be in "B"

 

 

He was in C because R1 was going on a 3-2 count with 2 outs and there would be no play at 2B?  But then how did that runner get thrown out by 5 feet unless he slowed down when he looked and or heard ball four?

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11 hours ago, Jimurray said:

But then how did that runner get thrown out by 5 feet unless he slowed down when he looked and or heard ball four?

He got thrown out by five feet because he runs about as fast as I do, absolutely never steals and the only reason he was going was because it was 3-2 two out.

 

19 hours ago, MadMax said:

A catcher shouldn't be throwing a ball on a (known) 3-2 count!

No he shouldn't (unless it's some decoy attempt to get R3).  And with that in mind, there is no reason to indicate R1 is out...there are only two scenarios where he could typically be out (sure, he could abandon, or run over F6):

1. If it's a ball, and R1 overruns the base and gets tagged

2. If it's a strike, uncaught

In scenario two, the BU (probably) knows if it was caught or not.  The catcher (probably) knows it was caught or not.  F6 might not, depending on where he's looking when he breaks for the bag (assuming another defensive faux pas here - not only should the catcher not be throwing, F6 should be playing the batter first)....R1 almost certainly doesn't know if the pitch was caught or not.

So, in the weird scenario where it's strike three, catcher drops pitch and quickly recovers, on autopilot just throws to 2, and F6 lays the tag, then the out mechanic is needed.

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10 hours ago, Jimurray said:

He was in C because R1 was going on a 3-2 count with 2 outs and there would be no play at 2B?  But then how did that runner get thrown out by 5 feet unless he slowed down when he looked and or heard ball four?

thats not a Mechanic.. sorry wrong answer.

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10 hours ago, Jimurray said:

He was in C because R1 was going on a 3-2 count with 2 outs and there would be no play at 2B?  But then how did that runner get thrown out by 5 feet unless he slowed down when he looked and or heard ball four?

The reason we stay in B for that situation is for the possible pickoff at 1st. Don't assume the pitcher isn't gonna try and pick off.. heck it happened to me last night with R1 and R3.. one time the runner from 1st started going they got him in a small run down, then the defense snapped a throw to 3rd for a throw back... 2 umpire system this is a crappie look for us. 

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22 minutes ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

thats not a Mechanic.. sorry wrong answer.

I know. Just guessing why he might have wanted to be in C. 

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2 hours ago, Haid D' Salaami said:

The reason we stay in B for that situation is for the possible pickoff at 1st. Don't assume the pitcher isn't gonna try and pick off.. heck it happened to me last night with R1 and R3.. one time the runner from 1st started going they got him in a small run down, then the defense snapped a throw to 3rd for a throw back... 2 umpire system this is a crappie look for us. 

Silly me, I thought (when I read "College" and "I was in 'C' ") that they were working in a three-man crew when reading the OP.  

As for the question originally posted, I agree with others...see the play at second base then look back at your partner to see what he called.  Then you can either "whack" the guy out, or quietly say that was "ball four" (if needed).

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The discussion here is really if there are 0 or 1 outs. With 2 outs, there's no call at 2nd on a steal unless something absolutely ridiculous happens.

I feel like when I've seen this in MLB, they look in to the plate for a "what do you have"...and the PU knows to tell him it's ball four or signal an out at the plate, then the base umpire turns around and goes from there.

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On 6/27/2018 at 9:22 PM, Haid D' Salaami said:

can I ask the 1st question?  Why are you in "C" with R1 and R3? you should be in "B"

 

 

Typo... B. 

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On 6/28/2018 at 11:43 AM, lawump said:

Then you can either "whack" the guy out

Why are you whacking R1 out if it was strike three, for out three?  Formality?   (that sounds sarcastic, but it's not)   If it's strike three, provided it's caught, the play at second is nothing...or should you be ruling on it regardless, as simply a good habit?

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15 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Why are you whacking R1 out if it was strike three, for out three?  Formality?   (that sounds sarcastic, but it's not)   If it's strike three, provided it's caught, the play at second is nothing...or should you be ruling on it regardless, as simply a good habit?

You should "rule on it" in your head.  You should not "rule on it" in the field -- this shows good game awareness.

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19 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Why are you whacking R1 out if it was strike three, for out three?  Formality?   (that sounds sarcastic, but it's not)   If it's strike three, provided it's caught, the play at second is nothing...or should you be ruling on it regardless, as simply a good habit?

Good point.  Because I was asleep at the wheel when I was typing and forgot that there were two outs in the OP.  Obviously, you would only whack on a K3 if there were 0 or 1 out.

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Had an F2 throw down to 2nd on a ball 4 about two weeks ago. R1 pulled up and over ran the bag. F6 took the throw and taged R1 for an out. I was PU and announced ball four a number of times. My timing is such that the throw might have been gone before the catcher heard it. We normally signal each other 3-2, 2 outs so we are aware of the situation and we would not make a call like this at second.

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