Jump to content

Remove these ads by becoming a Premium Member
  • 0
Sign in to follow this  
Guest Hot rod

Runner scores from third before double play third out

Question

Guest Hot rod

1 out runners at third and first. Fly ball to right field is caught. Runner scores before the runner is thrown out returning to first. Does the run count?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 2

Yep, this is a time play. Coaches may argue that it's a force, but force is when you lose the right to a base and must advance. This isn't that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remove these ads by becoming a Premium Member
  • 0

Bonus Unrequired-but-Relevant Reading Post:

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

And the award to the most popular rules question on the internet goes to...

...this one!

I've posted this before and I'll post it again. I'm amazed at how often this question comes up, particularly in that I've NEVER had to make this ruling in a game I've officiated in a twenty-plus year career. But not a season goes by where this question doesn't come up again and again.

I participate in three or four different baseball and softball discussion boards and, this year alone, I have already seen this question asked about a dozen times. And I'm sure that I'll see it a few more times before the year is over! That just seems disproportional compared to the number of times I've seen this in a game.

Naturally, because this fine forum is full of experienced umpires, the answers so far have all been correct. Yep, in this case the run does count. If the runner from third had crossed the plate AFTER the out at first, then the run wouldn't count.

I'll just throw out a few things to consider:

- When someone thinks the run wouldn't count, it's because they think the out at first base was a force out. IT'S NOT! It might kind of look like many force outs we see, where the fielder holds the ball and touches the base, but holding the ball and touching the base is NOT the definition of a force out.

- By definition, a force out can only be made by a runner already on base when the batter hit the ball (or otherwise became entitled to run), who was forced to advance/vacate his base when the batter became a batter-runner. But when the batter is put out before safely reaching first base ALL FORCE OUTS ARE ELIMINATED. You cannot have a force out in that circumstance.

- When a fly ball is caught, runners are no longer forced to advance. Thus, you can never have a force out on that play.

- A runner being "doubled up" for leaving early on a caught fly ball is NEVER a force out. It's a live ball appeal play. The defense is appealing that the runner left early.

- Since it's an appeal play, and not a force out, the whole thing about runs not counting if the third out is a force out DOES NOT APPLY.

- When the third out is an appeal of this nature, any runs made BEFORE the appeal count. Any runs made AFTER the appeal do not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
10 minutes ago, BretMan said:

Naturally, because this fine forum is full of experienced umpires, the answers so far have all been correct

I wouldn't assume one leads to the other.

I've seen this scenario come up in two games (that I can remember) once as a player and once as a coach.

In the one game the ump, with many years experience, did get it wrong.    In the other, not only the umpire, but both coaches knew the rule...the only point of discussion we had was whether or not R2 (yes) crossed the plate before the appeal of R1 was completed - in this case the umpire correctly ruled that TWO runs counted as they both scored before the third out appeal was made at first base.

As well, in a separate discussion at a different game I had an umpire with 30 years experience tell me this was a force play.  I had a different umpire with 30 years experience (who was also a trainer) tell me that the batter making the third out at ANY base negated all runs scored on the play, regardless of timing.

So, even experienced umpires think that the ability to make an out by tagging the base makes it a force play, and mess up what you would think are basic principles.

 

The problem with the force discussion is in language:

 

First - everyone knows you can touch the bag to get an out on a force play, so they conclude that any time you can touch the bag to get an out it's a force.

Second - Nobody is claiming the runner is forced to advance.  Their belief is the runner is "forced" to retreat.  And in everyday language, they're not wrong.   It's explaining the difference between "baseball" force and "English" force....especially when it's done in real time.  R1 is running back to first on a fly ball caught by F8, and F8's throw is going to first to get him.  If the throw beats the runner he's out...so of course he's "forced" to get back to the base before the ball gets there.

Third - people's minds get really blown when they're told the play at first on the batter isn't a "force".   What do you mean the batter isn't "forced" to run to first?  Where the Hell else can he go?

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

First - everyone knows you can touch the bag to get an out on a force play, so they conclude that any time you can touch the bag to get an out it's a force.

 

 

I blame the education system -- logic is apparently not a requirement any more.  ;)

 

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×