Dropped third strike

[Guest Kevin]

I had this situation in a 12U girls tournament game. Bases loaded 1 out. Catcher drops third strike. Batter takes off for first. ALL other runners never leave their base UNTIL the catcher throws to first. Once the ball left her hand all runners safely advanced 1 base, girl from third scoring. Now, I know the batter is out regardless as first was occupied with less than 2 outs, however the catcher put the ball into play. My understanding this is a live ball and runners advance at their own risk. Umpire sent all runners back and stated it was a dead ball when she left the batters box and also warned me as the coach that it was “deceiving the defense” and I would be ejected if it happened again. 

Now, there’s no deception involved I teach my girls to run on strike 3 regardless if it’s caught or not just to get in the habit of running to first if it were dropped. I also teach my catchers if there’s a runner on third to hold the ball on dropped third strike. From the rule books I have read I’ve seen no where stated this is an illegal play. I’ve also not found any rule on deceiving the defense. 

[maven]

Sounds like MSU rules, but then, I don't know softball.

In baseball, you're right.

[noumpere]

You are correct tin baseball; I don't know about softball.

 

How did the protest turn out?

[Guest Kevin]

I protested during the call to the point I had my runner who scored stay in the dugout runners on 2&3 sit on the bag. Called time and asked for the head official and a rule book. Head official cane out and they didn’t have a rule book on site and he admitted to not knowing the proper call so they made all runners go back. We ended up hitting a base clearing triple the next batter so the outcome didn’t change. We won 17-9. Just wanting clarification because to me it’s a good habit to run and capatilize in the defense mistakes. 

[CJK]

Same in all softball codes.

As a funny aside, I had a play this weekend with R1, no out, uncaught 3k, and both R1 and BR took off.  F2 threw to 1B late, but it didn't matter, BR was already out.  OHC came down from the 3B coaches box to make sure she understood who was out and why, so I called time (working solo) to talk to her.  While time was out, the runner headed back to 1B.  I looked back up, saw her, and sent her to 2B.  The defense tried to tag her out as she "re-advanced", and I had to have a new discussion with the DHC why the runner got 2B "for free."   Goofy.

[Guest Kevin]

Also if it helps we follow OSHAA rules. 

[Guest Kevin]

This whole tournament was full of bad decisions made on the head official. I umpire myself and know it’s a hard thankless job but some things done were ridiculous. After the game in question the head umpire comes to me on my way to the car with 4 of my players and wants to discuss the call. I explain my understanding of the rule and he still claims it’s a dead ball. I ask him to bring a rule book the following day as we had a game then and told him I would do the same. He then proceeds to say “I didn’t need a rule book. I’m head official and what I say goes”  so I asked even if you’re wrong? He then tries to eject me after the game off the field. The next day he is out umpire. We have a rule of a pitcher hits 3 batters in a game she must be replace. She hit 2 in the first and 1 in the third. When the third batter was hit my scorekeeper notified me and I called time and notified the umpire. I was then given a warning to “not tell him how to umpire the game”. 

[beerguy55]

Baseball and softball are exactly identical when it comes to dropped third strike rules - I think even with the age group when it starts.

Unless the umpire can read into your heart and mind and knows with 100% certainty, and willing to bet his life on it, that your intent was to deceive/confuse the defense then MAYBE, just maybe, it could be ruled interference by a retired player.

In the end, the catcher needs to know the rule.  S/he knows it was strike three.  She needs to know in that situation the batter is out, whether she caught it or not.

And you're not alone - hundreds of coaches out there teach their kids the same - run on any strike three (don't even wait to see if it wasn't caught).

[Mudisfun]

1 hour ago, Guest Kevin said:

This whole tournament was full of bad decisions made on the head official. I umpire myself and know it’s a hard thankless job but some things done were ridiculous. After the game in question the head umpire comes to me on my way to the car with 4 of my players and wants to discuss the call. I explain my understanding of the rule and he still claims it’s a dead ball. I ask him to bring a rule book the following day as we had a game then and told him I would do the same. He then proceeds to say “I didn’t need a rule book. I’m head official and what I say goes”  so I asked even if you’re wrong? He then tries to eject me after the game off the field. The next day he is out umpire. We have a rule of a pitcher hits 3 batters in a game she must be replace. She hit 2 in the first and 1 in the third. When the third batter was hit my scorekeeper notified me and I called time and notified the umpire. I was then given a warning to “not tell him how to umpire the game”. 

Your response here is 'absolutely, you are correct sir. I wish to file a protest for a misapplication of the rule, please put a P in the book' and then walk right back to your dugout without another word. Give him zero ammunition to eject you, do it right in front of the scorekeeper so when this comes to the protest group, they can be witness that you said ZERO to the umpire with a power trip and a poor grasp of the rules he is tasked with enforcing. 

Walk back to your dugout and play on.

[MadMax]

On 6/18/2018 at 8:19 AM, Guest Kevin said:

Head official came out and they didn’t have a rule book on site and he admitted to not knowing the proper call so they made all runners go back.

 

On 6/18/2018 at 8:47 AM, Guest Kevin said:

After the game in question the head umpire comes to me on my way to the car with 4 of my players and wants to discuss the call. I explain my understanding of the rule and he still claims it’s a dead ball. I ask him to bring a rule book the following day as we had a game then and told him I would do the same. He then proceeds to say “I don’t need a rule book. I’m head official and what I say goes.”

I’m addressing all my fellow umpires generally, more as a preventative, precautionary observation than to target any specific behavior by a member or group here.

Firstly, in today’s digitally networked age, this shouldn’t happen. OBR is available online, and most leagues and tournaments either publish their rules modifications via website or circulate them via email. Unfortunately, NFHS Rules are not available online (but really should be), but again, most tournaments that modify NFHS for their own purposes publish these electronically or post them onsite. All umpires and coaches should have the rules at their disposal.

Secondly, there isn’t an excuse for not knowing the rules, or refusing to find or determine the proper rules. We need to start doing a more consistent and redoubtable job of distinguishing rules as opposed to judgements. Far too often, we use the “(umpire) judgement” label so as to defeat an otherwise valid question or justifiable challenge to a rule. If you have solid rules knowledge and proper application of them, you will find less challenges to your judgements. Admission of ignorance to rules is dangerous and damaging to one’s credibility as an umpire.

Thirdly, an umpire should never approach coaches or parents in a parking lot, much less outside the ballfield, to discuss a call! Umpires do not want to be approached or harassed after a game, so why would the reciprocal be tolerated??

Lastly, and most grievously, this statement is toxic and unacceptable. It’s bad enough when it’s said within a game (here’s where the PU/UIC “deification thing” shows up ugly), but then when it’s said by a UIC, externally, damages and undermines the relationship between umpires... and everyone else. All that effort, by umpires across baseball, to lessen the “us versus them” mentality that so many participants carry is eviscerated by an asinine statement like this.

[Aging_Arbiter]

wow..........all of them there 25 cent words.  Must be the heat gettin' to 'em.

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

wow..........all of them there 25 cent words.  Must be the heat gettin' to 'em.

[Ump29]

On 6/18/2018 at 10:11 AM, maven said:

Sounds like MSU rules, but then, I don't know softball.

In baseball, you're right.

Who said this was softball ?

[Rich Ives]

28 minutes ago, Ump29 said:

Who said this was softball ?

Read the OP.   Deduce it.

[KCKUMP]

Wow just wow I am both speechless and as a UIC I feel like I should apologize to you for what he did and said. This is not even a hard call to make no ideal how a UIC would not know this. He had no right to chase you down and then threaten you. I would call the TD and company who ran the tournament and file a complaint. 

[beerguy55]

11 hours ago, Ump29 said:

Who said this was softball ?

Deductive reasoning...how many girls' tournaments do you see/hear about.  How many of them are baseball vs softball?  I'd venture to guess it goes about 49:1 in favor of softball....and that might be conservative.

[Guest stevepinney]

On 6/18/2018 at 9:19 AM, Guest Kevin said:

I protested during the call to the point I had my runner who scored stay in the dugout runners on 2&3 sit on the bag. Called time and asked for the head official and a rule book. Head official cane out and they didn’t have a rule book on site and he admitted to not knowing the proper call so they made all runners go back. We ended up hitting a base clearing triple the next batter so the outcome didn’t change. We won 17-9. Just wanting clarification because to me it’s a good habit to run and capatilize in the defense mistakes. 

Wouldn't it just be easier to teach the simple rule of when a batter can or can't run on a dropped third strike?

 

[CJK]

39 minutes ago, Guest stevepinney said:

Wouldn't it just be easier to teach the simple rule of when a batter can or can't run on a dropped third strike?

A.  Of course not.  It's without a doubt objectively easier to teach "on strike three, you run."

B.  It's not against the rules to run, and it might create an advantage.  You should teach players to run.

C.  Why would you want a player looking for the ball and trying to figure out if it was caught?  That could be the step-and-a-half difference between out and safe, if the ball wasn't caught, and there's no penalty for running if it was a caught.

Choose any or all.

[jjb]

50 minutes ago, CJK said:

A.  Of course not.  It's without a doubt objectively easier to teach "on strike three, you run."

B.  It's not against the rules to run, and it might create an advantage.  You should teach players to run.

C.  Why would you want a player looking for the ball and trying to figure out if it was caught?  That could be the step-and-a-half difference between out and safe, if the ball wasn't caught, and there's no penalty for running if it was a caught.

Choose any or all.

So, OK, let's, for the moment, say you're right on all counts. R1, 1 out, D3K, the BR takes off for first, (just like you told him/her). R1, sees the BR taking off for 1st, takes off for second. F2 guns him/her down at second. You just coached yourself into an out. 

You're a coach; teach them the rules of baseball....

[CJK]

41 minutes ago, jjb said:

You just coached yourself into an out.

No, because I'm not coaching every runner to "run no matter what," I'm coaching my batters to do it.

Not every umpire has the same responsibilities on every play.  Not every defensive player has the same responsibilities on every play.  Likewise, not every offensive player has the same responsibilities on every play.  The batter, though, can and should be coached to run on strike 3.

[beerguy55]

On 6/22/2018 at 9:56 AM, jjb said:

So, OK, let's, for the moment, say you're right on all counts. R1, 1 out, D3K, the BR takes off for first, (just like you told him/her). R1, sees the BR taking off for 1st, takes off for second. F2 guns him/her down at second. You just coached yourself into an out. 

You're a coach; teach them the rules of baseball....

Teaching players is iterative, adaptive, progressive and evolutionary.   You don't always have a club team you've had for three years and are training over the winter.  Sometimes you have a community team that was thrown together by random name draw for the local league, and you've had exactly two practices before the "get to know you" tournament, and five of your players have never played organized baseball before.

At the younger levels, I teach my players to run on every strike three.   As they get older, (or show some degree of savvy) I explain/teach the rule, and the exceptions.   At the earlier levels, if the catcher has dropped the ball, R1 is almost certainly going ANYWAY, regardless of the count, and in most cases, F2 isn't making the play.   If I have a less experienced player, even at older levels, run on every strike three.

Baby steps.

Likewise, on ground balls, even with R1, the first thing I teach my players is to make the play at first.   I don't care the score, how many outs, how hard the ball is hit, or how fast R1 is or is not.  Take the batter.  Typically speaking, R1 is closer to second than the batter is to first.   Take the batter.   Then, as the players get comfortable with that, then you move onto situational play.  Take the lead runner.  Take the batter if there's two out.  Determine how hard the ball was hit or how fast the runners are.  Communicate to each other and tell each other where to throw.  Remind each other what to do before hand.

Coaching your team is about coaching your players to know what to do BEFORE the pitch is thrown - having as many scenarios in their head as reasonable so they're not thinking, they're just reacting.  You have to start small and simplify the scenarios, and minimize the number of scenarios.   Over time, you extend it.  And this is different for every player.

If you expect your team of 12 year olds to all know all the elements of U3K, IFF, force plays, appeals, and everything else, on day one, you're setting yourself and your team up for failure.   Sometimes just hitting the cutoff man is a victory.

[Ump29]

On 6/21/2018 at 11:55 PM, Rich Ives said:

Read the OP.   Deduce it.

 

On 6/22/2018 at 10:55 AM, beerguy55 said:

Deductive reasoning...how many girls' tournaments do you see/hear about.  How many of them are baseball vs softball?  I'd venture to guess it goes about 49:1 in favor of softball....and that might be conservative.

You are assuming that because the OP mentions girls that it is softball. Female involvement in baseball is alive and well.

[Rich Ives]

46 minutes ago, Ump29 said:

 

You are assuming that because the OP mentions girls that it is softball. Female involvement in baseball is alive and well.

OP: "I had this situation in a 12U girls tournament game."

I've never heard of a girls baseball tournament. Ever. Anywhere.

And I did have girls on a few of my LL teams.

We had girl all-stars.

Girls have been to Williamsport.

But none were  "12U girls tournament teams."

 I'm 73.

(The Girls pro league was over in 1954. It wasn't a tournament. It wasn't 12U )

[beerguy55]

7 hours ago, Ump29 said:

 

You are assuming that because the OP mentions girls that it is softball. Female involvement in baseball is alive and well.

I make no such assumption...again, deductive reasoning....and, playing the odds.   If you can show me a 12U girls baseball team, I'll show you 500 girls' softball teams without finding another baseball team.  If you show me an all girls 12U baseball LEAGUE or tournament, you may have found the only one in America.

Similar to Rich, I have played on baseball teams that had a girl or two.  I've never come across a girls' baseball TEAM, let alone a league or tournament.   I coached girls softball for ten years...the most common thing I saw is a few girls would come over to softball because they were tired of being the only girl on the baseball team.   None of them came from a girls' baseball TEAM.

 

Not saying female baseball players are not out there...but if you see a random girl with a glove and a bat, there's about a 99% chance she's playing on a softball team, not baseball....and if she is playing baseball, it's almost certainly with a dozen boys on the roster.

[beerguy55]

7 hours ago, Ump29 said:

 

You are assuming that because the OP mentions girls that it is softball. Female involvement in baseball is alive and well.

Case in point - even Little League only has a Baseball division - whereas they have Softball-Girls and Softball-Boys divisions.   No Baseball-Girls.

So, if you can point out any all girls baseball league or tournament...or even an all girls high school baseball team...I'd be much obliged to learn about it.  

[Ump29]

@beerguy55

So, if you can point out any all girls baseball league or tournament...or even an all girls high school baseball team...I'd be much obliged to learn about it. 

On 6/23/2018 at 2:15 PM, Ump29 said:

Female involvement in baseball is alive and well.

In my neck of the woods this is quite true. Females are involved in almost all levels of youth baseball both in co ed teams and all female teams. These all female teams play in the same leagues as the boys. Our umpire association also has about 8 percent female membership who can work games which are all male , mixed or all female. There has been a National Championship played in our area for several years which consists of all female teams. There is also talk of starting all female leagues this summer. Baseball Canada holds several all female National Championships every year. So yes female involvement in baseball is alive and well.

By the way I am male and have been umpiring for almost 30 years.