Jump to content

Remove these ads by becoming a Premium Member
  • 0
Guest Rob

Out of baseline

Question

Guest Rob

We had runners on 1st and 2nd with one out the batter hits a ground ball to 3rd the third basemen stepson 3rd the runner that advanced to 2nd thinks that there is 3 outs and starts walking off 2nd on the grass near the pitchers mound the dugout begins to yell to the player near the pitchers mound to go back there is only 2 outs he runs back the pitcher throws it to second base and the runner beats the throw the umpire called him out is that the correct call

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

17 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

From OBR:

 

Rule 5.09(b)(1) and (2) Comment: Any runner after reaching
first base who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or
his position believing that there is no further play, may be
declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be
considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remove these ads by becoming a Premium Member
  • 0
1 hour ago, Guest Rob said:

We had runners on 1st and 2nd with one out the batter hits a ground ball to 3rd the third basemen stepson 3rd the runner that advanced to 2nd thinks that there is 3 outs and starts walking off 2nd on the grass near the pitchers mound the dugout begins to yell to the player near the pitchers mound to go back there is only 2 outs he runs back the pitcher throws it to second base and the runner beats the throw the umpire called him out is that the correct call

 

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

From OBR:

 

Rule 5.09(b)(1) and (2) Comment: Any runner after reaching
first base who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or
his position believing that there is no further play, may be
declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be
considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases

When did the umpire call him out, which he was if the umpire judged abandonment, which it appeared to be the OP description? Sometime umpires have a WTF moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
41 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

 

When did the umpire call him out, which he was if the umpire judged abandonment, which it appeared to be the OP description? Sometime umpires have a WTF moment.

Sometimes new umpires have learned the rule but not how to apply it. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Did the runner ever get to 2B? Perhaps he never actually touched the base and  the force play was still in order.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
On 6/10/2018 at 7:10 AM, Kevin_K said:

Did the runner ever get to 2B? Perhaps he never actually touched the base and  the force play was still in order.

I thought that at first as well, however:

 

On 6/9/2018 at 10:01 PM, Guest Rob said:

starts walking off 2nd

Tells he he was on the bag 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
1 minute ago, stkjock said:

Tells he he was on the bag 

The reason I asked is because the post is not from an umpire. Frequently, fans, coaches, and others who are not umpires are not watching players actually touch bases and they may presume that a player in the vicinity of a bag must have already touched it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

The OP says "the runner beats the throw" so force or not, it sounds like the runner beat the ball to the base. Sounds like the runner was called out for abandonment, and it would seem rightfully so (though it's hard to say without seeing the play live) - he left the base path thinking there was no further play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
4 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

The reason I asked is because the post is not from an umpire. Frequently, fans, coaches, and others who are not umpires are not watching players actually touch bases and they may presume that a player in the vicinity of a bag must have already touched it.

Agreed -- I am always amazed (even though by now I shouldn't be) at the amount of irrelevant material that fans often give in posts / questions while leaving out the one or two important facts.  Similarly, they sometimes see one play and get the ruling, that see another that's superficially the same and get another ruling -- they often don't understand the key distinction.  Getting to the important details is part of what makes umpiring (and officiating in general) so enjoyable (wehn we get it right) AND so frustrating (when others dont.)

 

(And, to be clear, the above is a general statement -- not directed at the OP in this thread necessarily.)

1 hour ago, isired said:

The OP says "the runner beats the throw" so force or not, it sounds like the runner beat the ball to the base. Sounds like the runner was called out for abandonment, and it would seem rightfully so (though it's hard to say without seeing the play live) - he left the base path thinking there was no further play.

It is kind of a "call of last resort", but making it all the way to the dirt of the pitching mound is pretty far.  The call is certainly supported by rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
It is kind of a "call of last resort", but making it all the way to the dirt of the pitching mound is pretty far.  The call is certainly supported by rule.
Yeah, that's why I think it's really hard to judge abandonment without seeing it - and as you mentioned above, there are often facts missing that might lead you to decide one way or the other. Did R1 take his helmet off? How much time elapsed? There's a reason why you hardly ever see it called, makes me think it had to be somewhat obvious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Depends on the age group.  Here is the LL case:

 

“The Right Call” 2015 Casebook -- Comment: When to call him/her out? Whenever he/she obviously “gives up” and heads towards his/her dugout or, at the end of an inning, towards his/her defensive position. But wait until the runner is on foul ground or well onto the outfield grass before you declare an out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0



Depends on the age group.  Here is the LL case:
 
“The Right Call” 2015 Casebook -- Comment: When to call him/her out? Whenever he/she obviously “gives up” and heads towards his/her dugout or, at the end of an inning, towards his/her defensive position. But wait until the runner is on foul ground or well onto the outfield grass before you declare an out.
That's a bit cloudy, other than "gives up" - which to me is the key to an abandonment call. As far as the criteria listed after that in the case above, in this instance, if R1 is the pitcher, you either decide that he's headed to his infield position and call abandonment, or you are waiting for him to reach foul ground (he likely won't) or the outfield grass (he definitely won't) and wait until??

I think in reality it's a combination of things - time and distance, for sure, but also state of mind, as in has he "given up" - which you can't 'see' from a text description of events. It's one of those things where you might not be able to describe it, but you know it when you see it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
7 minutes ago, isired said:


 

That's a bit cloudy, other than "gives up" - which to me is the key to an abandonment call. As far as the criteria listed after that in the case above, in this instance, if R1 is the pitcher, you either decide that he's headed to his infield position and call abandonment, or you are waiting for him to reach foul ground (he likely won't) or the outfield grass (he definitely won't) and wait until??

I think in reality it's a combination of things - time and distance, for sure, but also state of mind, as in has he "given up" - which you can't 'see' from a text description of events. It's one of those things where you might not be able to describe it, but you know it when you see it.

Gives up vs. confusion. That's why I said it's age dependent.

In LL they lose count. Maybe the runner starts off. Maybe the defense starts off so the runner sees it and start off. Heck - both teams might start off on their own.  Coach(es) starts yelling "go back it's only two outs".  Been there too many times. Do not call abandonment  on a fire drill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Gives up vs. confusion. That's why I said it's age dependent.
In LL they lose count. Maybe the runner starts off. Maybe the defense starts off so the runner sees it and start off. Heck - both teams might start off on their own.  Coach(es) starts yelling "go back it's only two outs".  Been there too many times. Do not call abandonment  on a fire drill.
I've never seen it called in LL. Seen the batter called out after entering the dugout on a D3K while the right fielder was chasing the catcher's errant throw, but that's as close as I've come to abandonment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
Guest NJ Coach

In a 9u travel game I witnessed a defensive team leave the field and the batting team take its place, and only then did people realize there had only been two outs.    The ump called both teams to switch back and complete the prior half inning.  There were no runners on base so it’s not runner abandonment issue, but can abandonment be called on the entire offensive team when it took the field ?

i asked an ump I know how this should have been handled...and the response was ‘to make things right ‘ by sending the defense back onto the field...like was done by the ump in the actual game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
11 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

In a 9u travel game I witnessed a defensive team leave the field and the batting team take its place, and only then did people realize there had only been two outs.    The ump called both teams to switch back and complete the prior half inning.  There were no runners on base so it’s not runner abandonment issue, but can abandonment be called on the entire offensive team when it took the field ?

i asked an ump I know how this should have been handled...and the response was ‘to make things right ‘ by sending the defense back onto the field...like was done by the ump in the actual game.

The umpire was right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Sometimes you have to just think "these are 8 and 9 year olds" regardless of whether they're a travel team or a rec team. It's still got to be instructional at that age.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
2 hours ago, isired said:

Sometimes you have to just think "these are 8 and 9 year olds" regardless of whether they're a travel team or a rec team. It's still got to be instructional at that age.

Heck... you should do the same at shaving age.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×