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Guest Bulldogs1

2nd Mound visit/Non-Substitution

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Guest Bulldogs1

3rd Grade League Tournament
Top of the 2nd, pitcher hit a second batter.  Injured player being tended to on field.  All coaches on field with time out called.  Home Manager does not call time or is granted time but crosses the foul line to tell pitcher he will be removed for a 3rd hit batter.  Opposing team first objects to non-removal for 2nd hit batter.  The rule states 3 hit batters is cause for removal.  Once that argument is settled, Away Managers call 2nd mound visit to umpire for removal of Home pitcher.   Home Manager asks for the rule book.  League rules produced on the field do not state rules on mound visits.  Umpire explains 2nd mound visit requires pitchers removal as stated in MLB rules.  Home Manager disputes the "official" 2nd mound visit and the removal of his pitcher.  Umpire says he must remove him.  Home Manager again references rule book, asks to see rules to verify and he will remove pitcher.  Away Managers again state MLB rules but nobody, including the Umpire, has a copy of MLB rules.  Home Manager tells ump he is not removing pitcher and Away team calls protest.  Protest is lodged, play continues as directed by the umpire.  Home Manager asks umpire if pitcher can stay, Umpire allows pitcher to stay in game and play continues under protest.  About 10-12 pitches later, the inning is over and the Away Team achieves their 5 run limit.  Once the top of the 3rd inning commences, prior pitcher has been removed from game.  Game continues to play out and home team wins the game, 10-9.

League Board rules in favor of the Away Team protest and awards losing team the forfeit for "illegal" pitcher, two days later... Umpire never called "illegal" pitcher on the field or forced his removal. 

Mound visit rules state pitcher must be removed after 2nd mound visit. The umpire did not force pitcher from the game.  The umpire did not suspend the game until compliance of the rules or even threaten discipline on Home Manager for non-compliance of this rule.  The umpire allowed him to continue pitching.  The 5 run limit was reached and the Away team was not negatively impacted in their half of the 2nd inning.  MLB rules 5.1.h discuss non-substitution rules of improper pitcher becoming the proper pitcher once allowed by umpire and all resulting plays legal.

Which rule applies?  2nd mound visit removal or non-substitution improper pitcher becomes the proper pitcher by default resulting from umpires decision for pitcher to continue.?

The games outcome was not affected by the protest and the protesting Team got their 5 runs and led the game 5-3 going into the bottom of the 2nd inning.

Again, the league Board rules Manager disobeyed Umpire and thus his pitcher was illegal. The Illegal player designation allows for the protest to be granted and forfeit given to the winning team.

Umpire allowed pitcher to continue after 2nd mound visit.
Umpire did not discipline/warn/eject Manager for non-removal of pitcher on 2nd mound visit.
Protest team earns 5 run limit in protested inning and pitcher is retired after protested inning is completed.
Protest team loses the game in bottom of 3rd.

Thoughts on this scenario?

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Two thoughts:

1) As described, I would have ruled differently if on the Board. 

1a) But, the board rules (and rulings) apply.

1b) There's always another side to the story.

2) Get. Over. It.  Even if you are right, it's third grade baseball.  There's a more important lesson that who wins this pi$$ing match.

 

 

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My first thought is it is a 3rd grade game and coaches are way too intense. It is a rule in second mound visit pitcher has to be removed. I have had this happen before when a kid was hurt and as soon as defense teams HC came out I told him one word to his pitcher and it’s a visit, however telling a pitcher if he hits one more and he is being pulled is not really a mound visit to me. He was not telling him to follow through or open his hips. 

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11 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Two thoughts:

1) As described, I would have ruled differently if on the Board. 

1a) But, the board rules (and rulings) apply.

1b) There's always another side to the story.

2) Get. Over. It.  Even if you are right, it's third grade baseball.  There's a more important lesson that who wins this pi$$ing match.

 

 

You would have to have a clown outfit to qualify to get on the board.

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1 hour ago, Guest Bulldogs1 said:

Home Manager tells ump he is not removing pitcher....

No only is your pitcher done, HM, but so are you.

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Why would away team protest if the home team refused to remove their pitcher.  THAT is not protestable.   The umpire, at that time, had ruled the player needed to be removed.   At that point it would be a point of protest for the home team.  The home team refusing to follow the umpire instruction is not a point of protest for the away team.  It's a point of enforcement, or how to handle the non-compliance, for the umpire.  Once the umpire changed his mind and let the pitcher stay, THEN the visiting team can protest....until then there's nothing to protest.   The ump should have ejected the coach and pitcher and then let the home team protest.

You can't forfeit a team where an umpire explicitly ruled a player eligible, but maybe he didn't technically do that.  Unless there is some rule/interpretation where the home team's explicit refusal to comply amounted to a forfeit at that time, even if the umpire changed his mind.  Umpire may have just decided "fine, I said you need to leave, you won't, keep pitching, we'll let the board figure it out".

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6 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Why would away team protest if the home team refused to remove their pitcher.  THAT is not protestable.   The umpire, at that time, had ruled the player needed to be removed.   At that point it would be a point of protest for the home team.  The home team refusing to follow the umpire instruction is not a point of protest for the away team.  It's a point of enforcement, or how to handle the non-compliance, for the umpire.  Once the umpire changed his mind and let the pitcher stay, THEN the visiting team can protest....until then there's nothing to protest.   The ump should have ejected the coach and pitcher and then let the home team protest.

You can't forfeit a team where an umpire explicitly ruled a player eligible, but maybe he didn't technically do that.  Unless there is some rule/interpretation where the home team's explicit refusal to comply amounted to a forfeit at that time, even if the umpire changed his mind.  Umpire may have just decided "fine, I said you need to leave, you won't, keep pitching, we'll let the board figure it out".

What OBR rule requires a non professional league to require a pitching change on the second visit?

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6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

What OBR rule requires a non professional league to require a pitching change on the second visit?

It's about the league adopting the OBR rules.

 

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6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

What OBR rule requires a non professional league to require a pitching change on the second visit?

Any league I ever played in requires a pitching change on a second visit in the same inning - my assumption is that is what was meant by "second visit".

Regardless, my post wasn't about the validity of the ruling or protest, but the order of events.

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25 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Any league I ever played in requires a pitching change on a second visit in the same inning

But not all the ones you've coached in, right?  Because the major girls' fast pitch associations (NCAA, USSSA, USA Softball, NFHS) don't have that requirement.

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51 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

It's about the league adopting the OBR rules.

 

They can adopt OBR rules but choose not to adopt all of the 5.10(l)8.06 Visit to the Mound rule. LL has their own rule. PONY addresses 2 visits to the pitcher in their supplement but does not address 2 visits to with the same batter. Non Professional leagues such as in the OP should make clear what they want implemented.

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36 minutes ago, CJK said:

But not all the ones you've coached in, right?  Because the major girls' fast pitch associations (NCAA, USSSA, USA Softball, NFHS) don't have that requirement.

Softball Canada does/did.   They recently added a three visits per game rule (pitcher must be changed on fourth visit), but I don't remember if they removed the second-visit-in-the-same-inning rule at the same time.

I can't recall ASA - we simply always assumed it so never did it (or the second visit was always to change the pitcher)....and, tbh, we never saw an opposing coach visit more than once in an inning so we never had a situation rise to be told differently.

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Guest Carl

Third Grade = 9 yrs old = STOP making the game about you, coach!

Away Coach, you lost the argument on how many hit batters cause removal.  Go back to your dugout and let the game proceed.  You can't stand being wrong so now you are going to try to find another way to get the pitcher off the mound?

Home Coach, after the Away Coach pulls that one, you just can't let it go and follow the umpire's directions?  He made a ruling that you had a second visit.  Go back to your dugout and let the game proceed.  

These coaches are poor examples to their players.  The board should have called a double-forfeit and recommended that they not be eligible to manage a team next season.  

How about, "Ok boys!  That didn't go our way but Joey's going to pitch now so lets put that behind us and see what we can do to get ourselves out of the inning!"  

Kids need to play, coaches need to let them.

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Guest 123

I think what you meant catsbackr is if not for the parents paying fees there would be no teams, no league, and then yes, you wouldn't have a job.

Isn't the umpire's golden rule to carry the rule book?

 

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It's usually the coaches who have a rulebook in their bag and/or, nowadays, on their phone.

If you're coaching an age/league where you're capping runs/inning, your job is teaching fundamentals. Back off on the intensity regarding rules technicalities and get intense on form, mindset and repetition.

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On 6/7/2018 at 10:26 AM, Guest Bulldogs1 said:

3rd Grade League Tournament
Top of the 2nd, pitcher hit a second batter.  Injured player being tended to on field.  All coaches on field with time out called.  Home Manager does not call time or is granted time but crosses the foul line to tell pitcher he will be removed for a 3rd hit batter.  Opposing team first objects to non-removal for 2nd hit batter.  The rule states 3 hit batters is cause for removal.  Once that argument is settled, Away Managers call 2nd mound visit to umpire for removal of Home pitcher.   Home Manager asks for the rule book.  League rules produced on the field do not state rules on mound visits.  Umpire explains 2nd mound visit requires pitchers removal as stated in MLB rules.  Home Manager disputes the "official" 2nd mound visit and the removal of his pitcher.  Umpire says he must remove him.  Home Manager again references rule book, asks to see rules to verify and he will remove pitcher.  Away Managers again state MLB rules but nobody, including the Umpire, has a copy of MLB rules.  Home Manager tells ump he is not removing pitcher and Away team calls protest.  Protest is lodged, play continues as directed by the umpire.  Home Manager asks umpire if pitcher can stay, Umpire allows pitcher to stay in game and play continues under protest.  About 10-12 pitches later, the inning is over and the Away Team achieves their 5 run limit.  Once the top of the 3rd inning commences, prior pitcher has been removed from game.  Game continues to play out and home team wins the game, 10-9.

League Board rules in favor of the Away Team protest and awards losing team the forfeit for "illegal" pitcher, two days later... Umpire never called "illegal" pitcher on the field or forced his removal. 

Mound visit rules state pitcher must be removed after 2nd mound visit. The umpire did not force pitcher from the game.  The umpire did not suspend the game until compliance of the rules or even threaten discipline on Home Manager for non-compliance of this rule.  The umpire allowed him to continue pitching.  The 5 run limit was reached and the Away team was not negatively impacted in their half of the 2nd inning.  MLB rules 5.1.h discuss non-substitution rules of improper pitcher becoming the proper pitcher once allowed by umpire and all resulting plays legal.

Which rule applies?  2nd mound visit removal or non-substitution improper pitcher becomes the proper pitcher by default resulting from umpires decision for pitcher to continue.?

The games outcome was not affected by the protest and the protesting Team got their 5 runs and led the game 5-3 going into the bottom of the 2nd inning.

Again, the league Board rules Manager disobeyed Umpire and thus his pitcher was illegal. The Illegal player designation allows for the protest to be granted and forfeit given to the winning team.

Umpire allowed pitcher to continue after 2nd mound visit.
Umpire did not discipline/warn/eject Manager for non-removal of pitcher on 2nd mound visit.
Protest team earns 5 run limit in protested inning and pitcher is retired after protested inning is completed.
Protest team loses the game in bottom of 3rd.

Thoughts on this scenario?

A 5 run limit with third graders and people protest?  Great example for the kids to look up to.  It's little kids playing a little kid's baseball game.  Don;t ruin the fun they are supposed to be having.  Parents and coaches just ruin these experiences.

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