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Guest SFJ

Protest Handling

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Guest SFJ

Good Morning,

We had a situation in a game last night where one of the umpire missed a call. Bases were loaded the batter hit a pop up in the infield the umpire correctly call infield fly batter out. The infielder missed the ball and the base runners advanced and scored. The umpire sent the base runners back to the base because he call a dead ball after the infielder missed the ball. The batting team coach played the reminder of the game under protest. The battling team ended up losing the game. The league ruled the game must be replayed from the point the incorrect call was made.

My questions are as follows:

1.       Was that the correct ruling?

2.       If that is the correct ruling do the pitches the pitchers threw in the remainder of the game count towards their weekly pitch count?

3.       Who do we handle if all the player who participated in that game aren’t available? (For example the number 5 batter isn’t available to bat in the replayed game)

4.       Will players who weren’t available in the first game (ie were at game) be allowed to play in the replayed game?

Thanks!

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36 minutes ago, Guest SFJ said:

Good Morning,

We had a situation in a game last night where one of the umpire missed a call. Bases were loaded the batter hit a pop up in the infield the umpire correctly call infield fly batter out. The infielder missed the ball and the base runners advanced and scored. The umpire sent the base runners back to the base because he call a dead ball after the infielder missed the ball. The batting team coach played the reminder of the game under protest. The battling team ended up losing the game. The league ruled the game must be replayed from the point the incorrect call was made.

My questions are as follows:

1.       Was that the correct ruling?  - the protest ruling was correct, the call on the field was wrong, it's a live ball, runners advance at their own risk

2.       If that is the correct ruling do the pitches the pitchers threw in the remainder of the game count towards their weekly pitch count? - yes, those rules are there to protect the player

3.       Who do we handle if all the player who participated in that game aren’t available? (For example the number 5 batter isn’t available to bat in the replayed game) - what rule set?  I would suspect this is addressed based on rule set.

4.       Will players who weren’t available in the first game (ie were at game) be allowed to play in the replayed game? - should be if they are on the roster

Thanks!

see replies in red.

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53 minutes ago, stkjock said:

3.       Who do we handle if all the player who participated in that game aren’t available? (For example the number 5 batter isn’t available to bat in the replayed game) - what rule set?  I would suspect this is addressed based on rule set. (Substitute)

4.       Will players who weren’t available in the first game (ie were at game) be allowed to play in the replayed game? - should be if they are on the roster Yes

I added a couple of notes to what @stkjock had otherwise nailed........asking for ruleset

I am also drawing a couple of assumptions based on the OP.  The protest was filed when the question arose and a protest was filed with the UIC before the next pitch/play/attempted play. Otherwise, the board was wrong in upholding the protest.

 

I add that only because (being my local league UIC), I had to sit in on a protest hearing.  When play X happened, the manager questioned/complained/tried to convince the umpires on the field that Y was what they should have done.  After the end of the inning, when walking out to the 3B coaches box, he informed the home team that he was playing under protest and to write it in their book.  TOO LATE!!  Sorry Charlie.  As soon as I asked "If/When did he tell the umpire(s) that he was playing under protest", he knew the protest was not valid.  They lost, twice.

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16 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

I am also drawing a couple of assumptions based on the OP.  The protest was filed when the question arose and a protest was filed with the UIC before the next pitch/play/attempted play. Otherwise, the board was wrong in upholding the protest.

The other assumption I would add is the protest committee properly determined that the incorrect call actually impacted the losing team's chances of winning the game.  ie.  just because the protesting team lost the game, doesn't mean the game is automatically replayed if they win the protest.  If, for example, the batting team lost this game 12-1 the protest committee should rule that though the call was wrong, it didn't change the outcome of the game.  Or if, in the OP, the following batter hit a bases-clearing double, then the incorrect ruling had no bearing on the score at all.  The vast majority of the time an umpire's mistake will have zero impact on who won/lost the game.

Probably the most famous protest game of all, the Pine Tar game, had two subs when the game was continued - one due to an injury, and the other due to a trade.

 

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35 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

The other assumption I would add is the protest committee properly determined that the incorrect call actually impacted the losing team's chances of winning the game.  ie.  just because the protesting team lost the game, doesn't mean the game is automatically replayed if they win the protest.  If, for example, the batting team lost this game 12-1 the protest committee should rule that though the call was wrong, it didn't change the outcome of the game.  Or if, in the OP, the following batter hit a bases-clearing double, then the incorrect ruling had no bearing on the score at all.  The vast majority of the time an umpire's mistake will have zero impact on who won/lost the game.

Probably the most famous protest game of all, the Pine Tar game, had two subs when the game was continued - one due to an injury, and the other due to a trade.

 

IMHO, one play can change of the course of the game,  depending on inning, score at the time, outs at the time, there's no way to say that such a play didn't change the outcome of the game.

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3 hours ago, stkjock said:

IMHO, one play can change of the course of the game,  depending on inning, score at the time, outs at the time, there's no way to say that such a play didn't change the outcome of the game.

Inning one, two out, bases empty, batter hits a ball to the gap that bounces over the fence.  Umpire incorrectly gives him third base.  DHC protests.   On the next pitch the batter pops out OR hits a home run.   In either scenario the umpire's mistake was moot.  Don't care if the defense lost 2-0, 2-1, 4-3 or 15-2.   

Are you really going to have the game replayed from the time of the umpire's mistake?

 

The point of my post is replaying the game is not automatic.   The protest committee should review all the facts, especially what happened immediately after the mistake, to determine if the mistake had a realistic impact of reducing the team's chances of winning the game.   And, yes, when in doubt, replay.

 

In the OP - the difference is bases loaded, no run, and R2/R3, one run scores (this isn't even a scenario of an out added or removed, or the batting order influenced).  Without knowing the score of the game at the time of the mistake, what happened the remainder of the half inning, and the final score, I'm not "automatically" replaying the game from the umpire's mistake, and anything bigger than a three run differential where the next batter didn't hit into a DP made possible by the mistake is going to be a hard sell for me to replay the game.

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1 hour ago, stkjock said:

IMHO, one play can change of the course of the game,  depending on inning, score at the time, outs at the time, there's no way to say that such a play didn't change the outcome of the game.

The word "materially" is implied in the rule: " the violation (materially) adversely affected the protesting team’s chances of winning the game."  And, while it does depend on the inning, socre, and outs at the time, it also depends on the final score.  It's a judgment call by the league president (or protest committee) -- and that judgment can't be protested. ;)

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1 hour ago, noumpere said:

The word "materially" is implied in the rule: " the violation (materially) adversely affected the protesting team’s chances of winning the game."  And, while it does depend on the inning, socre, and outs at the time, it also depends on the final score.  It's a judgment call by the league president (or protest committee) -- and that judgment can't be protested. ;)

understood and agreed, it's a judgement call,  my point is, without those other details it's not possible, IMHO, to say it didn't effect outcome.  How many times have we even seen teams come back in the 9th down by 4,5 even 6 runs and win a game?

 

heck the Nats just did it to my Mets this year, 8th inning rally to win the game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BThmKTFK99o

and there are many examples 

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlbs-best-comebacks-in-history/c-215344274

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, stkjock said:

understood and agreed, it's a judgement call,  my point is, without those other details it's not possible, IMHO, to say it didn't effect outcome.  How many times have we even seen teams come back in the 9th down by 4,5 even 6 runs and win a game?

 

heck the Nats just did it to my Mets this year, 8th inning rally to win the game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BThmKTFK99o

and there are many examples 

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlbs-best-comebacks-in-history/c-215344274

 

 

 

My point was, in the "12-1" example, the mere addition/reduction of a single run as described in the OP, would rarely impact the outcome.  Unless the next batter hit into a DP made possible by having bases loaded, instead of R2/R3, then any mistake involving simply moving runners, even when one is improperly scored/not scored, is rendered moot far more often than it affects the outcome.

You need to remember - in my example the game has been played.  The losing team didn't score 6 runs in the last inning to tie/win the game.  If they did, the protest would have been dropped.   Misplacing baserunners didn't prevent that from happening.

When you start talking about adding/removing an out in an inning (which did not happen in the OP), then you can really start seeing the possibilities of changing things drastically, not only for that inning, but for the game as it influences both batting order and pitch count....so even a ten run difference is in play.

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My point was, in the "12-1" example, the mere addition/reduction of a single run as described in the OP, would rarely impact the outcome.  Unless the next batter hit into a DP made possible by having bases loaded, instead of R2/R3, then any mistake involving simply moving runners, even when one is improperly scored/not scored, is rendered moot far more often than it affects the outcome.
You need to remember - in my example the game has been played.  The losing team didn't score 6 runs in the last inning to tie/win the game.  If they did, the protest would have been dropped.   Misplacing baserunners didn't prevent that from happening.
When you start talking about adding/removing an out in an inning (which did not happen in the OP), then you can really start seeing the possibilities of changing things drastically, not only for that inning, but for the game as it influences both batting order and pitch count....so even a ten run difference is in play.


I see the point where the runner was erroneously given third and the next batter struck out, no run scored, no advantage. But I don't see how you can take the final score into account, especially if most of the runs were scored after the protest. Who knows how things look of the run or runs score, and the inning continues.

In the OP, if called correctly, at least one run scores and you're left with runners in scoring position. To me, anything is possible in that inning, from that point on. That's one of the things that makes baseball such a unique and great game.
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34 minutes ago, isired said:


 

 


I see the point where the runner was erroneously given third and the next batter struck out, no run scored, no advantage. But I don't see how you can take the final score into account, especially if most of the runs were scored after the protest. Who knows how things look of the run or runs score, and the inning continues.

In the OP, if called correctly, at least one run scores and you're left with runners in scoring position. To me, anything is possible in that inning, from that point on. That's one of the things that makes baseball such a unique and great game.

 

In the OP you still have runners in scoring position.  You have R1/R2/R3 with no runs scored, instead of R2/R3 and one run scored.   Let's assume the IFF made it one out.   Besides docking the run, the only disadvantage the ump has created is keeping the DP and IFF in effect.

If the next two batters K and the game ends 12-1 instead of 12-2 are you really replaying the game from the mistake?

 

Let's say the next batter hits a home run on the next pitch, makes the score 4-0...but those are the last runs that team scores all game, and then the other team ends up winning, whether it's 12-4 or 5-4.  Are you really playing the game over from the ump's mistake?   The home run cleaned the slate and undid any error the ump made.   The runner who should have scored in the first place, did on the next pitch.  The runners who should have been in scoring position scored anyway.  All the mistake did was turn a 3-run home run into a 4-run home run.

  • Score at time of error
  • Situation at time of error
  • What happened after the error in that inning
  • Final score

You use that information to determine whether the ump's mistake reasonably could have changed the outcome of the game.  And only then do you rule the game to be replayed as you also need to consider the logistics of scheduling teams, fields, umpires...in some cases for as little as an inning.   At that point, you also determine if the outcome of the game matters to the standings.

I've been league president for a couple of organizations - I've never had to listen to a protest in my time, but knew the rules and guidelines to the decisions I would have to make if it came up.   Most of it is common sense, and the more you know the game, the easier the decision is to make.  My point all along is it's not automatic, which many people believe.  The bar is HIGH in determining if an umpire's error changed the outcome of a game.

The bigger value in the protest process is to educate the umpire or the coach (and even the committee) on the rule in question, rather than replaying two innings of a community game to "get it right".

 

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I agree it's not automatic, and the scenario you laid out (grandl slam but team loses anyway) is along the lines of the scenarios I described where I think the offended team suffered no harm, so I agree there would not replay.

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In the league I work it is $100 to protest and it’s due before you leave the park. If you win you get your money back if you lose they keep it. In 8 years there not one team has protested a game

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