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Batter Time Out, Pitcher Set


isired
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14U tournament, OBR with a few moderations unrelated to this situation. Top 7, visiting team down a run, R2, 2 out. 1-1 count:
 
F1 comes set while the batter has one foot in the box, right hand raised for time. Umpire raises his left hand, palm to F1. Pitcher is looking at R2, I don't think he fully sees the situation. Batter brings his front foot in, digs in as he lowers his right hand to the bat, umpire lowers his hand as F1 delivers the ball - the effect being the batter has just gotten his right hand on the bat (hes a RHB) as the ball is delivered. PU calls strike 2 (it was, right down the middle). Batter is stunned; F1 looks apologetically at batter and pats his chest, as if to say "my bad". Batter offers a mild protest, PU is unmoved.
 
Questions - first, is the umpire raising his left hand, palm to F1, truly a time out? Is it a dead ball situation? Or is it, as I sometimes feel its treated, a special 'mini time out' that's really just a pause for the batters sake?
 
If it's the former, does F1 have to disengage and re-set?
 
Would you see this as just the 1 time in a thousand that the timing is off, nothing can be done, just one of those things? This seemed to be the consensus after I had a very nice conversation with both umpires after the following game - we played back-to-back games, this was the last batter in the first game (he ended up lining out to F9 on the 1-2 pitch) so I waited until after the second because I wanted it to be what it was, just me trying to understand what happened, what the batter could have done differently, etc. Only suggestion was to have him keep his hand up until every other part of him was fully set, then get his hand right to the bat (makes sense, I guess he was more casual than he should have been). I was super appreciative that they took the time to speak to me.
 
Would you have handled it any differently?


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16 minutes ago, isired said:

14U tournament, OBR with a few moderations unrelated to this situation. Top 7, visiting team down a run, R2, 2 out. 1-1 count:
 
F1 comes set while the batter has one foot in the box, right hand raised for time. Umpire raises his left hand, palm to F1. Pitcher is looking at R2, I don't think he fully sees the situation. Batter brings his front foot in, digs in as he lowers his right hand to the bat, umpire lowers his hand as F1 delivers the ball - the effect being the batter has just gotten his right hand on the bat (hes a RHB) as the ball is delivered. PU calls strike 2 (it was, right down the middle). Batter is stunned; F1 looks apologetically at batter and pats his chest, as if to say "my bad". Batter offers a mild protest, PU is unmoved.
 
Questions - first, is the umpire raising his left hand, palm to F1, truly a time out? Is it a dead ball situation? Or is it, as I sometimes feel its treated, a special 'mini time out' that's really just a pause for the batters sake?
 
If it's the former, does F1 have to disengage and re-set?
 
Would you see this as just the 1 time in a thousand that the timing is off, nothing can be done, just one of those things? This seemed to be the consensus after I had a very nice conversation with both umpires after the following game - we played back-to-back games, this was the last batter in the first game (he ended up lining out to F9 on the 1-2 pitch) so I waited until after the second because I wanted it to be what it was, just me trying to understand what happened, what the batter could have done differently, etc. Only suggestion was to have him keep his hand up until every other part of him was fully set, then get his hand right to the bat (makes sense, I guess he was more casual than he should have been). I was super appreciative that they took the time to speak to me.
 
Would you have handled it any differently?

 

First off, it should be his right hand.  Yes it is "Time". Nothing can happen with a do not pitch hand raised.

Secondly, DO NOT allow F1 to stay in the set position. He may stay engaged, "pre set", looking in for a sign, but if he stretches while the batter is not in the box, and/or the umpire's hand is raised, the umpire should immediately instruct F1 to step off and start over, and remind him not to start his stretch while time is out and/or the batter is not set and ready in the box. 

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If PU has his hand up (it should be his right hand), the ball is dead under Fed and NCAA rules. F1 is under no obligation to reset in this situation.

In terms of game management, it is usually best to allow the batter to become set prior to allowing F1 to pitch. Not only does it put the batter at a distinct disadvantage, it could also be a safety concern as the batter may not be paying attention to the ball. 

I might suggest that rather than shoving his hand in the umpire's face, the batter should be taught to ask for time and that way he knows he has the time necessary to get set or does not..

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if he stretches while the batter is not in the box, and/or the umpire's hand is raised, the umpire should immediately instruct F1 to step off and start over, and remind him not to start his stretch while time is out and/or the batter is not set and ready in the box. 

If PU has his hand up (it should be his right hand), the ball is dead under Fed and NCAA rules. F1 is under no obligation to reset in this situation.

So two umpires who thoughtfully answer Qs here often seem to disagree on this - and this was my main question to the PU, he felt that no, no reset was required. I thought it must be. But I couldn't find the situation addressed specifically.

 

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15 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

F1 is under no obligation to reset in this situation.

SO batter has one foot out of the box, PU had his hand up, you would allow F1 to stretch and come set during this??

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I allow the pitcher to come set and stay that way.  However, he cannot pitch until I've put the ball in play.  If he starts his motion while my hand is still up, I will verbally call "time" or say "wait" hoping he stops his motion.  If he pitches, of course, the pitch won't count.  Some pitchers want to push their luck and will start their motion the exact second that I put the ball back into play.  In those cases I try to make sure to hold the pitcher up long enough that the batter is ready. 

That's pretty much what happened, though the pitcher was innocent. He came set with his eyes on R2, and started his delivery as he turned his head to home. I don't think he realized time was out. I think it's just one of those casual moments that happens a hundred times and every now and the the batter and the PU get too casual and it happens.  

 

 

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I allow the pitcher to come set and stay that way.  However, he cannot pitch until I've put the ball in play.  If he starts his motion while my hand is still up, I will verbally call "time" or say "wait" hoping he stops his motion.  If he pitches, of course, the pitch won't count.  Some pitchers want to push their luck and will start their motion the exact second that I put the ball back into play.  In those cases I try to make sure to hold the pitcher up long enough that the batter is ready. 

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Just now, isired said:
3 minutes ago, UmpCast_Wes said:
I allow the pitcher to come set and stay that way.  However, he cannot pitch until I've put the ball in play.  If he starts his motion while my hand is still up, I will verbally call "time" or say "wait" hoping he stops his motion.  If he pitches, of course, the pitch won't count.  Some pitchers want to push their luck and will start their motion the exact second that I put the ball back into play.  In those cases I try to make sure to hold the pitcher up long enough that the batter is ready. 

That's pretty much what happened. I think it's just one of those casual moments that happens a hundred times and every now and the the batter and the PU get too casual and it happens.

I would agree.  Most pitchers are good about waiting, but that's not always the case.  It's good to see here that the pitcher realized he messed up and apologized for it.

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40 minutes ago, Richvee said:

SO batter has one foot out of the box, PU had his hand up, you would allow F1 to stretch and come set during this??

OP says pitcher stretched, batter put his hand up (presumably asking for time), and then PU puts his hand up to keep F1 from pitching.

In all honesty, I would not have even considered making F1 step off. If he wants to, that's fine, but his actions until PU raises his hand have all been legit. While  the do not pitch sign prevents any play from occurring, it is distinctly different from "Time!" where every thing needs to reset. Once the hand comes down, the ball is live without any other action from the umpire.

Is there an interpretation that says other wise? If there is, I will certainly change how I go about "Do not pitch"

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8 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

OP says pitcher stretched, batter put his hand up (presumably asking for time), and then PU puts his hand up to keep F1 from pitching.

In all honesty, I would not have even considered making F1 step off. If he wants to, that's fine, but his actions until PU raises his hand have all been legit. While  the do not pitch sign prevents any play from occurring, it is distinctly different from "Time!" where every thing needs to reset. Once the hand comes down, the ball is live without any other action from the umpire.

Is there an interpretation that says other wise? If there is, I will certainly change how I go about "Do not pitch"

No the ball is NOT in play when the hand comes down. The umpires has to put the ball in play.

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OP says pitcher stretched, batter put his hand up (presumably asking for time), and then PU puts his hand up to keep F1 from pitching.
In all honesty, I would not have even considered making F1 step off. If he wants to, that's fine, but his actions until PU raises his hand have all been legit. While  the do not pitch sign prevents any play from occurring, it is distinctly different from "Time!" where every thing needs to reset. Once the hand comes down, the ball is live without any other action from the umpire.
Is there an interpretation that says other wise? If there is, I will certainly change how I go about "Do not pitch"
The bolded is the issue, in a nutshell. Are there two different timeouts, either by rule or practice?

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1 hour ago, isired said:


 

The bolded is the issue, in a nutshell. Are there two different timeouts, either by rule or practice?
 

There are not two different timieouts.

 

And the difference in the two answers is what is *required* (nothing) and what is good practice / game management (making F1 "break" the fully set position -- most will also step off if this happens, but that's not needed even for game management)

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14U tournament, OBR with a few moderations unrelated to this situation. Top 7, visiting team down a run, R2, 2 out. 1-1 count:
 
F1 comes set while the batter has one foot in the box, right hand raised for time. Umpire raises his left hand, palm to F1. Pitcher is looking at R2, I don't think he fully sees the situation. Batter brings his front foot in, digs in as he lowers his right hand to the bat, umpire lowers his hand as F1 delivers the ball - the effect being the batter has just gotten his right hand on the bat (hes a RHB) as the ball is delivered. PU calls strike 2 (it was, right down the middle). Batter is stunned; F1 looks apologetically at batter and pats his chest, as if to say "my bad". Batter offers a mild protest, PU is unmoved.
 
Questions - first, is the umpire raising his left hand, palm to F1, truly a time out? Is it a dead ball situation? Or is it, as I sometimes feel its treated, a special 'mini time out' that's really just a pause for the batters sake?
 
If it's the former, does F1 have to disengage and re-set?
 
Would you see this as just the 1 time in a thousand that the timing is off, nothing can be done, just one of those things? This seemed to be the consensus after I had a very nice conversation with both umpires after the following game - we played back-to-back games, this was the last batter in the first game (he ended up lining out to F9 on the 1-2 pitch) so I waited until after the second because I wanted it to be what it was, just me trying to understand what happened, what the batter could have done differently, etc. Only suggestion was to have him keep his hand up until every other part of him was fully set, then get his hand right to the bat (makes sense, I guess he was more casual than he should have been). I was super appreciative that they took the time to speak to me.
 
Would you have handled it any differently?



First I would never allow the pitcher to stay in the set position with my hand up. And I always ask the batter if he is ready. This is at every level from 7 year old Pinto to College. When the batter acknowledges that he is ready, I give him another beat to turn around and then I drop my hand. If I feel the pitcher quick pitched, I call no pitch and then I talk loudly to the pitcher, so both dugouts here me, to wait until the batter is ready. That usually takes care of the problem.


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According to the 2016 BRD (section 166, p. 126), at least one of the pro umpire schools frowns upon the usage of the do not pitch signal--

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  [The Wendelstedt school teaches that] the “Do not pitch” signal is not an appropriate mechanic. If the pitcher delivers a pitch when the batter is not appropriately ready, call an illegal pitch. (email to Childress, 7/13/12)

And the 2018 MiBUM (section 9.5, p. 130) seems to agree—

“Before the first pitch of an inning or following any dead situation, the plate umpire should be sure that the pitcher does not deliver the pitch before the batter is ready. It is acceptable for the umpire to put up his right hand up in front of his body at least head height to prevent the pitcher from delivering a pitch before the batter is set. This signal should only be used to indicate that the ball is still dead following the calling of time and never used to initiate the call of time. The plate umpire should always raise both hands above his head when initiating the call of time.”

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OK. This is pretty interesting with some diverse answers from everyone and interesting interps.

Similar to the OP..runners on. Pitch comes in.Ball 3. Now it's  3-0 count. Batter takes one foot out of box to look for a take/swing away sign from 3BC. While batter is standing with one foot out, getting his sign, F1 stretches and comes set. If this isn't a situation when PU should put up a "do not pitch sign" because time has not been called, what should PU do?

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6 minutes ago, Richvee said:

OK. This is pretty interesting with some diverse answers from everyone and interesting interps.

Similar to the OP..runners on. Pitch comes in.Ball 3. Now it's  3-0 count. Batter takes one foot out of box to look for a take/swing away sign from 3BC. While batter is standing with one foot out, getting his sign, F1 stretches and comes set. If this isn't a situation when PU should put up a "do not pitch sign" because time has not been called, what should PU do?

Allow the pitcher to stay set. Deal with what happens next. Which in my neck of the woods would be the set pitcher looking at the batter until he deemed the batter ready. I sometimes wonder why guys put a foul ball back in play with a hand up before a point. OBR requires you to put it in play as soon as the pitcher takes the rubber with the ball and other requirements are met. Just point it. 

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Mr. Richvee, the OP said his game was played under OBR rules with a few modifications (or moderations). So I answered with OBR interpretations. But OBR differs from NCAA and FED. Those two codes actually have rules mentioning do not pitch.

FED rule 5-1-1:  Ball becomes dead immediately when…h. the umpire handles a live ball or calls "Time” for inspecting the ball or for any other reason, including items in Section 2 or gives the “Do Not Pitch Signal” …

The “Do Not Pitch” signal is listed as item 21 in the Immediate Dead Ball table in rule 5 of the 2016 NFHS Baseball Rules Book.

NCAA rule 6-5h. The plate umpire holds up a hand instructing the pitcher not to pitch until the batter or umpire is ready. The ball is dead and no other play shall be allowed until the umpire declares, “Play" or uses some other appropriate signal such as a point toward the pitcher to indicate “Play” and that the ball is live. When a batter is getting set, the umpire shall keep one hand up to the pitcher to indicate that the ball is dead.

 

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13 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Allow the pitcher to stay set. Deal with what happens next. Which in my neck of the woods would be the set pitcher looking at the batter until he deemed the batter ready. I sometimes wonder why guys put a foul ball back in play with a hand up before a point. OBR requires you to put it in play as soon as the pitcher takes the rubber with the ball and other requirements are met. Just point it. 

Never mind. Answered by Mr Azul while typing.

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37 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Never mind. Answered by Mr Azul while typing.

Nothing in either rule book requires you to do that but if you do they are telling you you you killed it and you must make it live. Just don’t kill it when it is already dead or you have a seasoned pitcher on the mound. In other cases, go ahead and put your hand up, which will be ignored by many pitchers at certain levels. 

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7 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Nothing in either rule book requires you to do that but if you do they are telling you you you killed it and you must make it live. Just don’t kill it when it is already dead or you have a seasoned pitcher on the mound. In other cases, go ahead and put your hand up, which will be ignored by many pitchers at certain levels. 

Understood. Like you say, I'm not thinking about the seasoned pitchers in this sitch. I'm thinking more about the ones who are going to try to throw a pitch the second the batter puts his foot back in the box. These are the guys that need the stop sign, and again, as you mention, most likely the ones to ignore it as well. 

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Guest Nick
On 5/27/2018 at 7:01 AM, UMP45 said:

No the ball is NOT in play when the hand comes down. The umpires has to put the ball in play.

Exactly. Imagine the reverse. If F1 had dropped the ball while toeing the rubber with runners on when the hand came down. DC would be arguing no balk because ball was not yet in play. 

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Good discussion.  I've yet to experience a pitcher throwing a pitch when I've had my hand up.  I've had some less experienced ones start to, but I've shut it down.  

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Good discussion.  I've yet to experience a pitcher throwing a pitch when I've had my hand up.  I've had some less experienced ones start to, but I've shut it down.  
It was clear by the pitchers reaction that he had no idea, never looked home until he had left his set and started to deliver. Definitely nothing intentional, just one of those things.

Thanks all for your input.
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59 minutes ago, isired said:

It was clear by the pitchers reaction that he had no idea, never looked home until he had left his set and started to deliver. Definitely nothing intentional, just one of those things.

Thanks all for your input.

I see this a lot at Babe Ruth, and even some in HS.  Pitchers look at runner on 2B and then come set and never look back at plate until they start their movement towards the plate.  When they look and see me - we're good, but there are many times I have to step out from behind the catcher and wave and say "Do Not Pitch".   Then, I take a minute or two to explain they need to make sure we're all set at the plate before they pitch. Teaching moments... :)

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