Runner off base

[Nic]

Nightmare play as PU. 12U OBR.

R1 attempts to steal 2B and the throw beats him there. The tag is made, and waaay too quickly, the BU makes dramatic out call. I cringed.

Sure enough, SS never had secured the ball through the tag, dust settles and the ball had popped out.

BU signals safe just as the player had popped up and started off field, but he didnt hear him. Simultaneously this happens. Couldn't tell what happened first really. It was chaos.

Once his Coaches start screaming, he stops in his tracks, four or five feet from base, SS tags him out. 

BU calls him safe. DHC freaks out.

I conference and said he's out. It's why you wait to make the call, but once he's off the base, he's out. I call him out.

OHC freaks. Offensive crowd says we are both morons. I agreed with their assessment of my partner, but me?

Did I get that right?

[johnpatrick]

When a runner is put at a disadvantage by an umpire's errant call...fix it.  Someone is not going to be happy, but at least you can explain it.  Now if you're partner immediately and loudly changed his call and the runner still walked off, that may be a different story.

[Nic]

1 minute ago, johnpatrick said:

When a runner is put at a disadvantage by an umpire's errant call...fix it.  Someone is not going to be happy, but at least you can explain it.

Makes sense. Thanks. 

[noumpere]

39 minutes ago, Nic said:

Offensive crowd says we are both morons.

The crowd might be offensive, but they are right (okay -- "morons" is a bit harsh, but you should put the runner back)

[Nic]

5 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The crowd might be offensive, but they are right (okay -- "morons" is a bit harsh, but you should put the runner back)

Live and learn. Things you don't plan to see when you put the ball in play.  Heat of the moment, I felt alone out there as my partner was useless, and I tried doing what made sense, and probably over thought it. Did overthink it. Thanks.

[Nic]

15 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The crowd might be offensive, but they are right (okay -- "morons" is a bit harsh, but you should put the runner back)

And "offensive" meaning team batting who I called the out on. I didnt hear much just that lol. Im rarely offended.

[Senor Azul]

Official Interpretation:  PBUC:  If a runner steps off a base as a result of the umpire’s improper call, that “is a correctable umpire’s error, and the umpire should nullify the out.” (Evans, JEA/9:6, concurs)

Play:  Runner on first base is stealing with a 3-1 count on the batter. The next pitch is called ball four, but the catcher throws the ball to second base anyway, and the runner is tagged before reaching the base. Umpire erroneously calls the runner out, and the runner, believing he is out, steps off the bag and again tagged by the fielder.

Ruling:  The runner left second base under the assumption that the runner was out; however, the out was declared as a result of umpire error. In this situation the runner should be returned to second base. This is a correctable umpire error.

 

[KCKUMP]

IDK if you had a UIC there but gotta ask if so why did you not send for him? I tell all my umps if it is not a judgement call then come get me (UIC) and I will fix it. This serves two things first it gets it right and second the coach that is going to be mad will be mad at me not you. 

I had a similar situation last summer in a tournament. 12U field is 150 to right but has a tall fence that is in play. Ump doing the field was new and when the kid hit it off the wall he signaled HR. The other team who has played there before knew it was live and fired in to second tagging the runner. All hell broke loose and I was called to the field to sort it out. Asked PU did he signal HR and he said yes, I asked did the runner slow down to a HR trot? Yes. Brought both coaches in said I have a HR signal but it was not a HR and is live, talking with my umps they feel if not slowed with HR call he would have reached second so we are putting him there and moving forward with the game. Defensive coach was not happy but he vented on me not my umps. We got the play right and moved on

[Kevin_K]

5 hours ago, KCKUMP said:

 I tell all my umps if it is not a judgement call then come get me (UIC) and I will fix it.

Doesn't this undermine the on-field authority of the umpires? If the rats know all they need to do is to complain about a situation and the TD will come running, it would seem they are being taught to complain so they get what they want.

When I take the field, regardless of the situation, my partner(s) and I are in charge. We decide about everything that occurs on the field. If there is a question about a rule's application, the crew gets together and makes its best informed decision and play continues. Tournament directors and UICs have their jobs to do as well and they do not include changing diapers. 

My responsibility is to know the rules. TDs hire me to do a job. Let me.

[Replacematt]

5 hours ago, KCKUMP said:

IDK if you had a UIC there but gotta ask if so why did you not send for him? I tell all my umps if it is not a judgement call then come get me (UIC) and I will fix it. This serves two things first it gets it right and second the coach that is going to be mad will be mad at me not you. 

This is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard regarding umpiring. The only time a UIC should be involved in a call is if there's a protest.

[Guest NJ Coach]

Azul....in your example, shouldn't R1 have known it was ball four and be entitled to 2B ?   His fault for not being more aware ?

KCUMP's example is different in the sense that the hitter wouldn't have known if it was an HR or not and needed to rely on the call.

[noumpere]

36 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

Azul....in your example, shouldn't R1 have known it was ball four and be entitled to 2B ?   His fault for not being more aware ?

 

No.  Note that this is different from the (OBR) play where ball 4 check-swing is reversed to a strike and R1 is tagged before reaching second.

[Guest NJ Coach]

could you direct me to that reference ? You're saying that a runner advancing on the premise of the called check swing walk called can be put out ?

[KCKUMP]

7 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

Doesn't this undermine the on-field authority of the umpires? If the rats know all they need to do is to complain about a situation and the TD will come running, it would seem they are being taught to complain so they get what they want.

When I take the field, regardless of the situation, my partner(s) and I are in charge. We decide about everything that occurs on the field. If there is a question about a rule's application, the crew gets together and makes its best informed decision and play continues. Tournament directors and UICs have their jobs to do as well and they do not include changing diapers. 

My responsibility is to know the rules. TDs hire me to do a job. Let me.

No disrespect to OP but he kicked the call and he even said he was not sure. A simple call to the UIC to come over and boom the call is corrected and the game plays on. You may know the rules and that is great but their is a lot of umps that don’t know every rule. Our job is to get it right on things like this not pound our chest and say my field and I am alpha dog. Judgement calls are the umps and I would never override a umps judgement call but calls that can be fixed should be fixed and that is my job. It has nothing to do with changing diapers or walking over my umps. They learn something and the call gets fixed. 

[KCKUMP]

6 hours ago, Matt said:

This is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard regarding umpiring. The only time a UIC should be involved in a call is if there's a protest.

You want a protest to a game that could have been resolved in 10 seconds? 

[maven]

46 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

could you direct me to that reference ? You're saying that a runner advancing on the premise of the called check swing walk called can be put out ?

It's in the MLB umpire manual, and it applies to pro ball.

I would not recommend it for amateur baseball: for one thing, the timing of check swing appeals can vary so widely, even within a crew and from inning to inning, that the inconsistency would be unfair. And if a savvy coach knew that an umpire was using it, he'd wait till R1 got halfway to 2B, have his fielders tag R1, then appeal the check swing (or some such scheme).

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

could you direct me to that reference ? You're saying that a runner advancing on the premise of the called check swing walk called can be put out ?

OBR 8.02(c) CMT

[Senor Azul]

From the 2014 PBUC (section 9.8, p. 103) (also in the 2018 MiBUM, p. 127):

Play: Runner on first base, 3-1 count on the batter. Runner is stealing, and there is a check swing on the pitch. Plate umpire calls, “Ball; no, he didn’t go.” Catcher throws the ball to second base anyway, resulting in a play at second base where the runner is tagged before reaching second base.

Ruling:  The base umpire should watch the play closely but make no call on the play because when the tag play occurs at second base it actually is “Ball Four”—and will continue to be—until an appeal is made, and even then it will remain ball four unless the check swing is reversed. Therefore, after the play at second base is completed the base umpire should merely announce, “That’s ball four” in order to avoid any confusion on the part of the players. If the defensive manager or catcher requests an appeal on the check swing, the plate umpire will ask his partner for help. If the call is “No, he didn’t go” then the original call of ball four prevails. However, if the call is “Yes, he went,” the base umpire will emphatically call the appeal (“Yes, he went”) and then the umpire at second will turn and very emphatically call the runner out or safe at second base, depending on what he observed when the play occurred at second.

 

[Guest NJ Coach]

Azul....in that case,  the runner attempting to steal is independent of the Ball call.   What if the runner was not stealing but just leisurely advancing based on the Ball call ? Still liable to be put out ? That would be unfair.

[noumpere]

5 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

Azul....in that case,  the runner attempting to steal is independent of the Ball call.   What if the runner was not stealing but just leisurely advancing based on the Ball call ? Still liable to be put out ? That would be unfair.

So wait until it's adjudicated.

 

FED allows some leeway here for reversing the call; OBR does not.  Hence, Maven's comment above.  OTOH, I never had any trouble enforcing it the few times it came up in my career -- always at 13U and above.

[Replacematt]

8 hours ago, KCKUMP said:

You want a protest to a game that could have been resolved in 10 seconds? 

Yes. You're taking away your umpires' authority. If a coach has that much of a problem with a call, he can put his skin in the game.

[noumpere]

38 minutes ago, Matt said:

Yes. You're taking away your umpires' authority. If a coach has that much of a problem with a call, he can put his skin in the game.

Agreed.  Heck, if you're going to go get it right, then do so only after a protest -- and you can still get it right in 10 seconds.