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Charlie12212

Balk? Fake to third, fake to first...

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Newbie here....I've searched for this and can't find exact situation.  High School game, runners on 1st and 3rd, pitcher doesn't disengage from rubber (still a pitcher, not a fielder), makes legal pick off move to third, fakes throw to third, then pivots and fakes a throw to pickoff runner at first.  Balk?  Legal?  Thanks all. 

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Outlawed in OBR about 6 years ago. Still legal in HS.

OBR 6.02(a)(2) :It is a balk when: The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first or third base and fails to complete the throw;

Fed 6.2.4(a): any feinting toward the batter or first base,

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12 minutes ago, Charlie12212 said:

Thank you!

Did the pivot foot drag off the rubber in the feint to 3B? It normally does but since you say "pivot" It might not have dissengaged. In which case F1 has to throw to 1B and can't feint there. In pre no feint to 3B OBR and NCAA the pitcher has (OBR had) to break contact with the rubber to throw or feint to 1B after the 3B feint. HS is different.

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44 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

It normally does but since you say "pivot" It might not have dissengaged.

In my judgment, it disengaged during the feint to 3B.

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Mr. Charlie12212, when the pitcher in your scenario faked to first it was a balk—he has to throw to first after the legal fake to third. And the pitcher may make that throw with or without disengaging the rubber. Check out the following case book play.

2018 (also in the 2015 book) NFHS Case Book play:

6.2.4 Situation C:  With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING:  This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guilty of a balk.

 

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1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Charlie12212, when the pitcher in your scenario faked to first it was a balk—he has to throw to first after the legal fake to third. And the pitcher may make that throw with or without disengaging the rubber. Check out the following case book play.

2018 (also in the 2015 book) NFHS Case Book play:

6.2.4 Situation C:  With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING:  This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guilty of a balk.

 

We don't know what the OP pitcher did? Most likely he dissengaged, @maven is sure he did, and if so he can feint to 1B.

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6 hours ago, Charlie12212 said:

Newbie here....I've searched for this and can't find exact situation.  High School game, runners on 1st and 3rd, pitcher doesn't disengage from rubber (still a pitcher, not a fielder), makes legal pick off move to third, fakes throw to third, then pivots and fakes a throw to pickoff runner at first.  Balk?  Legal?  Thanks all. 

Legal: RHP F1 steps with left foot towards 3B, fakes a throw to 3B, then pivots on his left foot (right foot swings towards 3B) and throws to 1B.
Illegal: RHP F1 steps with left foot towards 3B, fakes a throw to 3B, then pivots on his right  foot (still engaged with the rubber) and throws to 1B. Balk

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6 hours ago, ricka56 said:

Illegal: RHP F1 steps with left foot towards 3B, fakes a throw to 3B, then pivots on his right  foot (still engaged with the rubber) and throws to 1B. Balk

In my judgment, F1 disengaged. Not a balk.

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1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

In my judgment, F1 disengaged. Not a balk.

With that explanation, one's rule application can't be questioned, only their virtual eye sight.  :lol:

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3 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

In my judgment, F1 disengaged. Not a balk.

99.99 % of the time, that's what happened.  I only saw two or three in my entire career where F1 didn't -- and every time they threw to first so it was legal.

 

Never saw anyone at a level other than HS NOT disengage as part of the move (when / where it was legal to make the 3-1 move)

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A high school pitcher does not have to disengage the pitcher’s plate when he makes a feint to third and then makes a throw to first. It is not a balk as it clearly states in case book play 6.2.4 C (posted earlier). But, apparently, just one case book play is not enough. So here’s a second one:

NFHS Case Book Play 6.1.5 SITUATION:  With R3 and R1, F1 steps and feints to third and then steps and throws to first attempting to pick off R1. The throw goes into dead-ball territory. The offensive team’s coach wants a balk to be called because the pitcher never threw the ball toward third. RULING:  When the pitcher stepped off the pitching plate in his feint to third, he became an infielder. Hence, when his throw goes into dead-ball territory, all runners are awarded two bases. R3 gets home and R1 gets third. Had F1 stayed on the pitching plate during his feint to third and his throw to first, all runners would be awarded one base. R3 would get home and R1 would get second. This would not be a balk as F1 made a legal feint and a legal pickoff attempt with no prior motion to pitch.

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On 5/19/2018 at 8:33 AM, noumpere said:

99.99 % of the time, that's what happened.  I only saw two or three in my entire career where F1 didn't -- and every time they threw to first so it was legal.

 

Never saw anyone at a level other than HS NOT disengage as part of the move (when / where it was legal to make the 3-1 move)

I can't even picture it in my head... seems like a tangle of legs and arms for a RHP to be able to do that still while still engaging

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