Balk? Fake to third, fake to first...

[Charlie12212]

Newbie here....I've searched for this and can't find exact situation.  High School game, runners on 1st and 3rd, pitcher doesn't disengage from rubber (still a pitcher, not a fielder), makes legal pick off move to third, fakes throw to third, then pivots and fakes a throw to pickoff runner at first.  Balk?  Legal?  Thanks all. 

[ricka56]

Outlawed in OBR about 6 years ago. Still legal in HS.

OBR 6.02(a)(2) :It is a balk when: The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first or third base and fails to complete the throw;

Fed 6.2.4(a): any feinting toward the batter or first base,

[Charlie12212]

Thank you!

[Jimurray]

12 minutes ago, Charlie12212 said:

Thank you!

Did the pivot foot drag off the rubber in the feint to 3B? It normally does but since you say "pivot" It might not have dissengaged. In which case F1 has to throw to 1B and can't feint there. In pre no feint to 3B OBR and NCAA the pitcher has (OBR had) to break contact with the rubber to throw or feint to 1B after the 3B feint. HS is different.

[maven]

44 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

It normally does but since you say "pivot" It might not have dissengaged.

In my judgment, it disengaged during the feint to 3B.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Charlie12212, when the pitcher in your scenario faked to first it was a balk—he has to throw to first after the legal fake to third. And the pitcher may make that throw with or without disengaging the rubber. Check out the following case book play.

2018 (also in the 2015 book) NFHS Case Book play:

6.2.4 Situation C:  With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING:  This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guilty of a balk.

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Charlie12212, when the pitcher in your scenario faked to first it was a balk—he has to throw to first after the legal fake to third. And the pitcher may make that throw with or without disengaging the rubber. Check out the following case book play.

2018 (also in the 2015 book) NFHS Case Book play:

6.2.4 Situation C:  With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING:  This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guilty of a balk.

 

We don't know what the OP pitcher did? Most likely he dissengaged, @maven is sure he did, and if so he can feint to 1B.

[ricka56]

6 hours ago, Charlie12212 said:

Newbie here....I've searched for this and can't find exact situation.  High School game, runners on 1st and 3rd, pitcher doesn't disengage from rubber (still a pitcher, not a fielder), makes legal pick off move to third, fakes throw to third, then pivots and fakes a throw to pickoff runner at first.  Balk?  Legal?  Thanks all. 

Legal: RHP F1 steps with left foot towards 3B, fakes a throw to 3B, then pivots on his left foot (right foot swings towards 3B) and throws to 1B.
Illegal: RHP F1 steps with left foot towards 3B, fakes a throw to 3B, then pivots on his right  foot (still engaged with the rubber) and throws to 1B. Balk

[Kevin_K]

6 hours ago, ricka56 said:

Illegal: RHP F1 steps with left foot towards 3B, fakes a throw to 3B, then pivots on his right  foot (still engaged with the rubber) and throws to 1B. Balk

In my judgment, F1 disengaged. Not a balk.

[ricka56]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

In my judgment, F1 disengaged. Not a balk.

With that explanation, one's rule application can't be questioned, only their virtual eye sight.  

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

In my judgment, F1 disengaged. Not a balk.

99.99 % of the time, that's what happened.  I only saw two or three in my entire career where F1 didn't -- and every time they threw to first so it was legal.

 

Never saw anyone at a level other than HS NOT disengage as part of the move (when / where it was legal to make the 3-1 move)

[Senor Azul]

A high school pitcher does not have to disengage the pitcher’s plate when he makes a feint to third and then makes a throw to first. It is not a balk as it clearly states in case book play 6.2.4 C (posted earlier). But, apparently, just one case book play is not enough. So here’s a second one:

NFHS Case Book Play 6.1.5 SITUATION:  With R3 and R1, F1 steps and feints to third and then steps and throws to first attempting to pick off R1. The throw goes into dead-ball territory. The offensive team’s coach wants a balk to be called because the pitcher never threw the ball toward third. RULING:  When the pitcher stepped off the pitching plate in his feint to third, he became an infielder. Hence, when his throw goes into dead-ball territory, all runners are awarded two bases. R3 gets home and R1 gets third. Had F1 stayed on the pitching plate during his feint to third and his throw to first, all runners would be awarded one base. R3 would get home and R1 would get second. This would not be a balk as F1 made a legal feint and a legal pickoff attempt with no prior motion to pitch.

[Gfoley4]

On 5/19/2018 at 8:33 AM, noumpere said:

99.99 % of the time, that's what happened.  I only saw two or three in my entire career where F1 didn't -- and every time they threw to first so it was legal.

 

Never saw anyone at a level other than HS NOT disengage as part of the move (when / where it was legal to make the 3-1 move)

I can't even picture it in my head... seems like a tangle of legs and arms for a RHP to be able to do that still while still engaging

[Kevin_K]

I know.... it's going on 3 years.... 

The refresher test for NJ has been published and here it is....

With R3 on third base and R1 on 1st base, the pitcher steps toward third and fakes a throw without disengaging the pitcher's plate. He then turns and throws to first base. The umpire should:

A. Call a balk

B. Make a call at first as this is a legal move.

 

I know how it's going to be called in real life...

[Thunderheads]

On 1/23/2021 at 2:51 PM, Kevin_K said:

I know.... it's going on 3 years.... 

The refresher test for NJ has been published and here it is....

With R3 on third base and R1 on 1st base, the pitcher steps toward third and fakes a throw without disengaging the pitcher's plate. He then turns and throws to first base. The umpire should:

A. Call a balk

B. Make a call at first as this is a legal move.

 

I know how it's going to be called in real life...

Kevin: I have B (legal) as worded.  As long as he steps towards 3rd to feint, he's fine.  He'll have to disengage to throw to first (physically impossible) ... that said, 3/1 move in HS is still legal.   Unless of course, I missed something!? 

[Kevin_K]

Thanks Jeff!

After all these years you would think that this nonsense with pedantic phrasing would not continue to be the proverbial burr in my saddle, yet it is.

The idea of these refresher tests is supposed to get guys in the rule book and to consider situations they may likely experience in games. Instead, test questions are devised in a manner so Byzantine in their structure and phrasing that most reasonably intelligent human beings are no longer thinking about the rules and the situations , rather they suffer paralysis through the analysis of "What answer are they actually looking for?"

It would have been so much more effective for the question to read: With R3 on third base and R1 on 1st base, the pitcher steps toward third and fakes a throw. He then turns and throws to first base. The umpire should:

As usual, @Thunderheads provides solid feedback. And I have B on my test! 

[Thunderheads]

10 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

Thanks Jeff!

After all these years you would think that this nonsense with pedantic phrasing would not continue to be the proverbial burr in my saddle, yet it is.

The idea of these refresher tests is supposed to get guys in the rule book and to consider situations they may likely experience in games. Instead, test questions are devised in a manner so Byzantine in their structure and phrasing that most reasonably intelligent human beings are no longer thinking about the rules and the situations , rather they suffer paralysis through the analysis of "What answer are they actually looking for?"

It would have been so much more effective for the question to read: With R3 on third base and R1 on 1st base, the pitcher steps toward third and fakes a throw. He then turns and throws to first base. The umpire should:

As usual, @Thunderheads provides solid feedback. And I have B on my test! 

WOW, ...thanks @Kevin_K .... I typically don't get 'kudos' for rules information!  Maybe this old dog can be taught new tricks?! LOL!  

I couldn't agree with your sentiment more!  Give us straight questions so we can concentrate on the situation and rules application, NOT THE WAY the question is worded!  A-Freaking-Men to that!  

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Thunderheads, I am hoping you can provide some solid feedback to me as well. Please explain the following—

 “He'll have to disengage to throw to first (physically impossible)…”

I ask because earlier in this so-called zombie thread I posted two FED case plays (6.2.4C and 6.1.5) that say it is permissible for a high school pitcher to fake to third and turn and throw to first without disengaging the rubber. Now I grant you that was more than 2 ½ years ago and I do not have the 2020 rules and case books. So have there been any changes to the FED rules regarding the 3-1 move? Or am I misunderstanding your post?

Also, Mr. Kevin_K, what did you mean when you posted that you know how the scenario in the test question would be called in real life? Is there something wrong with the possible answers offered on the test? By the way, you are indeed lucky to resurrect a zombie thread and not be chided or censured by any of our resident scolds.

[Kevin_K]

Mr @Senor Azul, I might suggest that the second caseplay offered does not address the engage/disengage questions. The ruling offers that F1 did in fact disengage, which makes the ruling obvious that he was an infielder and no longer a pitcher, but those details are not in the play as described.

On 5/20/2018 at 6:41 PM, Senor Azul said:

A high school pitcher does not have to disengage the pitcher’s plate when he makes a feint to third and then makes a throw to first. It is not a balk as it clearly states in case book play 6.2.4 C (posted earlier). But, apparently, just one case book play is not enough. So here’s a second one:

NFHS Case Book Play 6.1.5 SITUATION:  With R3 and R1, F1 steps and feints to third and then steps and throws to first attempting to pick off R1. The throw goes into dead-ball territory. The offensive team’s coach wants a balk to be called because the pitcher never threw the ball toward third. RULING:  When the pitcher stepped off the pitching plate in his feint to third, he became an infielder. Hence, when his throw goes into dead-ball territory, all runners are awarded two bases. R3 gets home and R1 gets third. Had F1 stayed on the pitching plate during his feint to third and his throw to first, all runners would be awarded one base. R3 would get home and R1 would get second. This would not be a balk as F1 made a legal feint and a legal pickoff attempt with no prior motion to pitch.

The bolded part would indicate that F1 has disengaged the pitching plate doesn't it?

The last line of the first caseplay also muddies the waters as the situation does not indicate whether or not F1 had disengaged the pitching plate when feinting to 3B. It also does not indicate that F1 stepped to 1B prior to throwing there. 

On 5/18/2018 at 8:59 PM, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Charlie12212, when the pitcher in your scenario faked to first it was a balk—he has to throw to first after the legal fake to third. And the pitcher may make that throw with or without disengaging the rubber. Check out the following case book play.

2018 (also in the 2015 book) NFHS Case Book play:

6.2.4 Situation C:  With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING:  This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guilty of a balk.

 

From my reading, there is no indication in the rulebook or the casebook that a throw without a step to first base is a legal pickoff unless F1 disengages the pitching plate. The test question posed in my zombie revival offers no indication that F1 either stepped toward 1B or disengaged from the pitching plate, hence my post.

[Senor Azul]

The last three sentences of the ruling in case play 6.1.5 Situation very clearly state that it is not a balk for a pitcher to feint to third and then throw to first without disengaging the rubber.

Had F1 stayed on the pitching plate during his feint to third and his throw to first, all runners would be awarded one base. R3 would get home and R1 would get second. This would not be a balk as F1 made a legal feint and a legal pickoff attempt with no prior motion to pitch.

The final two sentences of the ruling for 6.2.4 Situation C very clearly state a pitcher can remain on the rubber and feint to third and then throw to first.

He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guilty of a balk.

And I am not the only one who reads and understands those two plays to mean that a high school pitcher does not have to disengage on the 3-1 play. Here’s what Carl Childress says in his 2016 BRD (section 399, p. 266):

“A pitcher working from the set position may feint to third and then turn and throw to first. (6.1.5) He may do that with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. (6.2.4C)”

This interpretation has been in his book since 1990.

[noumpere]

I agree that F1 does not need to disengage on the 3-1 move in HS.

 

but, the test question does not include the information that F1 "turns to step toward first".

If you assume / read into the question that he does, then the play is legal.  If you assume / read that he doesn't step (he either pivots on the front foot or throws across his body / behind him) then the play is a balk.

I think the test maker assumed the former.

[Thunderheads]

9 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I agree that F1 does not need to disengage on the 3-1 move in HS.

 

but, the test question does not include the information that F1 "turns to step toward first".

If you assume / read into the question that he does, then the play is legal.  If you assume / read that he doesn't step (he either pivots on the front foot or throws across his body / behind him) then the play is a balk.

I think the test maker assumed the former.

Concur here ....... and your last statement is most important because; as test takers we shouldn't have to be thinking about the TEST MAKERS mind set  

[Eric GGG]

Sorry, but this is all very confusing for me but I'm trying to muddle my way through. tonight my son was pitching, 15-18 y.o. rec league, with Runners on first and third , and stepped towards 3rd with a legal pickoff move and faked the throw to Third. He spun around [ obviously disengaged from rubber] and thought of throwing to first but did not. The umpire called a balk. I yelled that he didn't know the rules and he told me I was wrong.

He was wrong, Correct?? [ the bottom line is:  in high school baseball one can fake a throw to Third if making a legal move in that direction. Once disengaged from the rubber after that legal move and fake towards 3rd, it doesn't matter what he does after that [ he can fake to first also, throw to first, or do jumping jacks]

[RBIbaseball]

6 minutes ago, Eric GGG said:

Sorry, but this is all very confusing for me but I'm trying to muddle my way through. tonight my son was pitching, 15-18 y.o. rec league, with Runners on first and third , and stepped towards 3rd with a legal pickoff move and faked the throw to Third. He spun around [ obviously disengaged from rubber] and thought of throwing to first but did not. The umpire called a balk. I yelled that he didn't know the rules and he told me I was wrong.

He was wrong, Correct?? [ the bottom line is:  in high school baseball one can fake a throw to Third if making a legal move in that direction. Once disengaged from the rubber after that legal move and fake towards 3rd, it doesn't matter what he does after that [ he can fake to first also, throw to first, or do jumping jacks]

Assuming you are accurate on ruleset and the fact that F1 disengaged off the feint to 3B, you are correct.

 

Considering it's rec ball how sure are you they were using nfhs (high-school) ruleset? In OBR (MLB, LL, Babe Ruth, etc.) feinting to 3B is illegal and the umpire would have been correct to call a balk.

[ousafe]

55 minutes ago, Eric GGG said:

I yelled that he didn't know the rules

Not an approach I would recommend. An alternative approach might be to instead ask - "What rule set are we playing by?"