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rzanew

Delayed call puts runner at disadvantage

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What is the recommendation for signaling on a play with an error that then continues?

Here is the situation:  14U 55/80.  R1, stealing on the pitch.  Good throw which arrives before the runner.  However, F6 doesn't glove the ball and it rolls 8-10 feet away. Tag is applied (with empty glove) and R1 thinks he is out and slowly overruns second base.  F6 chases the ball and easily tags the runner.

Would you signal and verbalize "safe" after the failed tag attempt?  I didn't do or say anything as the play was continuing.  In retrospect, this may have put the runner at a disadvantage since he clearly felt the tag and assumed he was out.  Is the delay and waiting for the whole play to finish the right mechanic?

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Yes, wait -- 8-10 feet is plenty of distance for everyone (including the runner) to know that the tag is "not valid."

Part of youth baseball is learning lessons -- R1 just learned one.

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The delayed call didn't put him at a disadvantage, his inattention did.

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First rule I teach my players.

I ask them when a ball is foul - and after five minutes of all players stating all the rule definitions and scenarios, which are mostly right, I tell them they're all wrong.  The only thing that makes a ball foul is the ump saying so.

Same thing with an out.   You're not out until the ump says you're out.  I don't care if it's blatantly obvious you're out - the ump may have missed it.  You've only got 27 of them (or however many innings you play)  - they're the most precious commodity in the game and you don't concede any of them.

This is completely on the runner and will be a good teachable moment for the next practice.

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1 hour ago, rzanew said:

Is the delay and waiting for the whole play to finish the right mechanic?

Because there is no call to be made, it cannot have been a delayed call.

We make a call (verbally, by signal, or whatever) on every play or attempted play. To have a play, we need three things: a runner, the ball, and a fielder making a tag (of base or runner).

Here, we had only 2 of the required elements: the ball was rolling away. Thus, there's no play being made (even though one or both players thought there was), and with no play, there is no call to be made.

It is not the umpire's responsibility to notify runners where the ball is.

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Thanks for all the replies.

I suppose I was second guessing my self (again) and wanted to confirm the correct response to the play (wait, wait, wait until the play is done). 

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From the 2018 CCA Baseball Umpires Manual--

1. Umpires shall make a signal on all calls with the exception of ball and an obvious catch of a fly ball. Signals are to be visible, crisp and clear. Voice calls should be clearly audible.

2. All signals should project decisiveness to the teams, fans and media. Signals should not be slow to the point of appearing uncertain or causing confusion for the participants, fans or media.

3. Umpires are expected to increase the assertiveness of their call signal and voice as the play becomes closer. A casual, laid-back signal is not appropriate in a crucial, close play. However, over-elaborate, excessive signals are not an acceptable technique either.

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Why wouldn't we say, "Ball's out, no tag!" With a point. 

I do agree that it's the runner's responsibility to have some idea of what's going on. 

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From the 2017/2018 NFHS Baseball Umpires Manual:

SAFE AND OUT CALLS. These must be made clearly, both verbally and with the proper signal. Players must know what the call is for the purpose of completing a play or moving on to another. Use your voice in such a way that everyone will know what is happening…

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15 minutes ago, Mister B said:

Why wouldn't we say, "Ball's out, no tag!" With a point.

Why would we? Are we doing play-by-play?

Do you announce that the batter hit the ball, or that the ball is being thrown back to the infield, or that the runners are advancing, etc.?

We make calls on plays. There's no play here, and the ball is in plain sight, so no call is required.

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In a situation where there is a close play (tag or force) on a runner, and the fielder drops (or otherwise fails to secure) the ball when trying to make a play, when the attempted play ends, I signal and say "Safe!", and then point to the ground (where the ball fell) and say "On the ground!" Should a fielder fail to control the ball on a tag (or force play), I say and signal safe, and do the "juggling" signal that a football official would use to indicate that a pass was not controlled, and say "No control!"  Should a fielder be off the base in an attempt to complete a force play, I do the "sweeping signal" with both arms, and say "Safe, off the bag!" This way, I inform the players (and other participants/spectators) that something unusual happened, and that the runner is not out, when an out could have been reasonably expected.

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16 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

In a situation where there is a close play (tag or force) on a runner, and the fielder drops (or otherwise fails to secure) the ball when trying to make a play, when the attempted play ends, I signal and say "Safe!", and then point to the ground (where the ball fell) and say "On the ground!" Should a fielder fail to control the ball on a tag (or force play), I say and signal safe, and do the "juggling" signal that a football official would use to indicate that a pass was not controlled, and say "No control!"  Should a fielder be off the base in an attempt to complete a force play, I do the "sweeping signal" with both arms, and say "Safe, off the bag!" This way, I inform the players (and other participants/spectators) that something unusual happened, and that the runner is not out, when an out could have been reasonably expected.

All correct.  All irrelevant to the OP.

(edit:  Since the OP was NOT one of those situations, the OP should have no call.)

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It is relevant, because the ball is not in the fielder's possession when the "tag" is made. Because there is no possession, there cannot be a tag. Because there is no tag (although there appears to be one), the base umpire must signal "safe", since the play on the runner failed. I would use either "Safe, on the ground", because the ball rolled away, or "safe, no tag" to explain the situation. 

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On 5/17/2018 at 1:33 PM, ilyazhito said:

I signal and say "Safe!", and then point to the ground (where the ball fell) and say "On the ground!"

Quick tip from someone thay got dinged for it on a college eval...

When signalling safe, then pointing to the ground for the ball being dropped... point with your LEFT hand. Especially if the play is at second.

Reason being... your back is to the field. So all they see are a safe call. The. You swinging your right arm down... which looks like a punch out.

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3 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

Quick tip from someone thay got dinged for it on a college eval...

When signalling safe, then pointing to the ground for the ball being dropped... point with your LEFT hand. Especially if the play is at second.

Reason being... your back is to the field. So all they see are a safe call. The. You swinging your right arm down... which looks like a punch out.

This is excellent advice! I actually very seldom point with my right hand, except for strikes, putting the ball in play and awarding bases. 

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7 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

Quick tip from someone thay got dinged for it on a college eval...

When signalling safe, then pointing to the ground for the ball being dropped... point with your LEFT hand. Especially if the play is at second.

Reason being... your back is to the field. So all they see are a safe call. The. You swinging your right arm down... which looks like a punch out.

Here I thought the left hand was an appeal on a check swing...the confusion... :-) 

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7 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

Quick tip from someone thay got dinged for it on a college eval...

When signalling safe, then pointing to the ground for the ball being dropped... point with your LEFT hand. Especially if the play is at second.

Reason being... your back is to the field. So all they see are a safe call. The. You swinging your right arm down... which looks like a punch out.

Good tip, and all very true....BUT.... as is the case in the OP, I don't think we should signaling safe and pointing at a ball rolling ten feet away from the base anymore than we should be pointing to a passed ball when F2 doesn't see it.  On a tag play, when the ball's laying on the ground under a body, or next to the runner and fielder, where not everybody can see it, by all means, point and signal. 

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33 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Good tip, and all very true....BUT.... as is the case in the OP, I don't think we should signaling safe and pointing at a ball rolling ten feet away from the base anymore than we should be pointing to a passed ball when F2 doesn't see it.  On a tag play, when the ball's laying on the ground under a body, or next to the runner and fielder, where not everybody can see it, by all means, point and signal. 

If the ball has rolled away and is behind 2B with a tangle of bodies and an umpire between the ball and the dugouts, perhaps the ball is in a place where everyone cannot see it.

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12 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

If the ball has rolled away and is behind 2B with a tangle of bodies and an umpire between the ball and the dugouts, perhaps the ball is in a place where everyone cannot see it.

Very true. For whatever reason in my mind's eye I "saw" a ball rolling across the infield dirt towards SS. Discretion should be used on such plays. 

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1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

If the ball has rolled away and is behind 2B with a tangle of bodies and an umpire between the ball and the dugouts, perhaps the ball is in a place where everyone cannot see it.

People will figure it out when they see someone chase the ball.  The point is useful when the fielder might quickly pick up the ball without moving (or moving much) and then some might think the ball was always in the glove.

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