Runners advancing on throw into dugout

[Nic]

12U Little League. R1 and R2 with one out. Batter grounds a chopper to 1B who catches, steps on bag and fires to third. Ball bounces by 3B and into dugout. Runners were advanced two bases --- R1 to 3B and R2 was scored.

Correct call?

A grandpa behind the fence told me R2 shouldn't have scored because he hasn't advanced one base. R2 had to have made it to the bag by the time the ball hopped into the dugout. 

I felt comfortable with the ruling, partner was adamant two bases, but perhaps I missed an obscure rules detail. 

Thanks.

[Rich Ives]

Award is two bases from where the runners were physically positioned at the time the throw left the fielders hand.  Right call. Grandpa is incorrect, even by the mythical 1+1 rule.  

[Richvee]

27 minutes ago, Nic said:

grandpa behind the fence told me............

Don't talk or listen to the fence.

[Nic]

10 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Don't talk or listen to the fence.

Yes sir. There was an injury, and 3 minutes of downtime... and a CLOSE backstop. It just happened. He said, "like your plate game but you missed that call...." and I engaged him.

Later, I was curious and it gave me pause. Appreciate the great advice as always.

[Gfoley4]

47 minutes ago, Nic said:

12U Little League. R1 and R2 with one out. Batter grounds a chopper to 1B who catches, steps on bag and fires to third. Ball bounces by 3B and into dugout. Runners were advanced two bases --- R1 to 3B and R2 was scored.

Correct call?

A grandpa behind the fence told me R2 shouldn't have scored because he hasn't advanced one base. R2 had to have made it to the bag by the time the ball hopped into the dugout. 

I felt comfortable with the ruling, partner was adamant two bases, but perhaps I missed an obscure rules detail. 

Thanks.

Yep, just remember that if it’s the first play by an infielder, it’s two bases from time of pitch. In this situation, it’s not the first play because the first baseman stepped on first. Now it’s two bases from time of throw. 

[Nic]

1 minute ago, Gfoley4 said:

Yep, just remember that if it’s the first play by an infielder, it’s two bases from time of pitch. In this situation, it’s not the first play because the first baseman stepped on first. Now it’s two bases from time of throw. 

This is what I've been looking for! Thanks. Applies to a lot of situations I feel like. I got lucky finding this place. Thanks guys.

[Nic]

54 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Award is two bases from where the runners were physically positioned at the time the throw left the fielders hand.  Right call. Grandpa is incorrect, even by the mythical 1+1 rule.  

 

@Rich Ives @Gfoley4

Silly question but I know it's "Time of pitch (TOP)", but the other is "Time of Throw"? I'm drawing blank on name of second such situation. 

[Richvee]

49 minutes ago, Nic said:

Yes sir. There was an injury, and 3 minutes of downtime... and a CLOSE backstop. It just happened. He said, "like your plate game but you missed that call...." and I engaged him.

Later, I was curious and it gave me pause. Appreciate the great advice as always.

I get it. Been there. However, in general, it's a good rule to follow. Now if little Jimmy's divorced hot mom is asking.....by all means, you may want to re-think the rule  

[Kevin_K]

6 hours ago, Nic said:

Yes sir. There was an injury, and 3 minutes of downtime... and a CLOSE backstop. It just happened. He said, "like your plate game but you missed that call...." and I engaged him.

Later, I was curious and it gave me pause. Appreciate the great advice as always.

Take a walk. Stare at the infield grass. Seriptitiously scan the bleachers from behind the mound. Fiddle with your line up cards. Whatever. Find something to make it look like your too busy or too far away to talk to the fence.

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, Gfoley4 said:

Yep, just remember that if it’s the first play by an infielder, it’s two bases from time of pitch. In this situation, it’s not the first play because the first baseman stepped on first. Now it’s two bases from time of throw. 

Correct -- although in this instance it doesn't matter -- R2 is going to score whether it's TOP or TOT.  It could have some bearing on where to place R1.

I can't figure out why Grandpa thought R2 wouldn't score.

[Nic]

41 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I can't figure out why Grandpa thought R2 wouldn't score.

He said R2 hadnt reached 3B when ball went into dugout. He told me to, "go home and read the rule book, runner must advance one base." I didnt pursue his vagueness. It sounded dumb.

Perhaps he has seen one too many calls in his years and was confused. Had me confused driving home. Which is why I checked here. 

[Larry in TN]

He's wrong because he thinks it's a one-base award.  It's always a two-base award for a thrown-ball.  (It's a one-base award for a pitched-ball)  The only question is if it's two bases from TOP or TOT but, in this case, that didn't matter.  R1->3B and R2 scores either way.

 

[maven]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

I can't figure out why Grandpa thought R2 wouldn't score.

Because his kid is the D coach and his grandson was the F3 who threw the ball away late in a close game.

[Nic]

10 minutes ago, maven said:

Because his kid is the D coach and his grandson was the F3 who threw the ball away late in a close game.

good call. He did say his TWO sons coach the blue team. Lmao. He said after game, "at least it didn't decide the game." Final 5-3.

[Rich Ives]

On 5/15/2018 at 11:22 PM, Nic said:

 

@Rich Ives @Gfoley4

Silly question but I know it's "Time of pitch (TOP)", but the other is "Time of Throw"? I'm drawing blank on name of second such situation. 

It wasn't the first play. I think t's TOT.

[Mister B]

I thought it was first throw from the infield. 

 

It's ToT if all runners advance to the next base before the ball is thrown. 

[maven]

2 hours ago, Mister B said:

I thought it was first throw from the infield. 

No. It's the first play by an infielder.

'Play' rather than 'throw': when a fielder tags one runner and then throws the ball away trying to get another, it's a TOT award, even though it's the first throw.

'Infielder': the player, not the spot on the field, makes the difference.

[Mister B]

I see my mistake, the rule says, "...makes a wild throw on the first play..." and the comment says, "...where a first throw by an infielder..."

[noumpere]

6 hours ago, Mister B said:

I see my mistake, the rule says, "...makes a wild throw on the first play..." and the comment says, "...where a first throw by an infielder..."

Because 95% of the time in these situations, the first throw and the first play are the same thing

[Biscuit]

16 hours ago, maven said:

No. It's the first play by an infielder.

'Play' rather than 'throw': when a fielder tags one runner and then throws the ball away trying to get another, it's a TOT award, even though it's the first throw.

'Infielder': the player, not the spot on the field, makes the difference.

An attempted tag would count as well, right? 

Hypothetical situation: We have an R1 and R2. Chopper hit down the line, F6 fields it, and misses a swipe tag on R2 going to 3rd, then overthrows F3, and it rolls into the dugout. R1 makes it to second before F6 is able to get the throw off. Because of the attempted tag on R2, R1 would score, right?

[noumpere]

Just now, Biscuit said:

An attempted tag would count as well, right? 

Hypothetical situation: We have an R1 and R2. Chopper hit down the line, F6 fields it, and misses a swipe tag on R2 going to 3rd, then overthrows F3, and it rolls into the dugout. R1 makes it to second before F6 is able to get the throw off. Because of the attempted tag on R2, R1 would score, right?

A valid attempt, and not just a feint, counts as a play.  MLBUM and J/R (I think) have some examples.

[Biscuit]

4 minutes ago, noumpere said:

A valid attempt, and not just a feint, counts as a play.  MLBUM and J/R (I think) have some examples.

Yeah, I'm assuming something like he just missed him as the guy was sliding or something.

[blue23ll]

On 5/15/2018 at 7:54 PM, Nic said:

Yes sir. There was an injury, and 3 minutes of downtime... and a CLOSE backstop. It just happened. He said, "like your plate game but you missed that call...." and I engaged him.

Later, I was curious and it gave me pause. Appreciate the great advice as always.

Time to inspect the outfield fence!!