Question about controversial play

[Guest Dallas Ferg]

Here is the play: Dropped 3rd strike, bases loaded. Batter attempts to run to first. Batter can not because first base is occupied. Runner on first has his lead off and walks back to first. Catcher throws the ball to first because he thought the batter eligible and first tags the first base runner. Batter is already out, but umpires calls the runner at first out. Is the drop third strike declared a dead ball, first base runner is not out or is the first base runner indeed out?

[pnewton]

The play is very much live, just like if strike 2 or ball 1 or any other pitch were not caught. If R1 was off the base he is out.

[noumpere]

Unless there are some special league rules in place, the a dropped third strike is NOT a dead ball.  BR is out on the strike out (assuming there were less than two outs), and it's not INT for BR to attempt to advance to first, even though he's can't legally advance.

 

So, the play on R1 is just like any other pick-off attempt.  R1 is safe if he's on the bag before the tag; he's out if he's tagged while off the bag.  It's as simple as that.

[KCKUMP]

I had this exact play 4 years ago. 1 out bases loaded HT catcher drops third strike and parents are screaming RUN!!!! so he takes off to first. Runner at first takes off because he hears everyone yelling run including first base coach but all other runners stay on base, catcher throws to first and first baseman tags first and is holding the ball standing there. Runner who was at first has now stopped and is walking back to first when coach yells tag him. He does and I call the out inning over. VTHC coach comes out I explain it and he goes crazy. Says i should have killed the play protected his runner....no sorry coach my PU said loud enough for me to hear 3 batters out. If I tell him not to run, go back or call time I am now helping you and taking plays away from defense and that’s not my job. Him or his first base coach (who was yelling to run) could understand and after a warning he was gone and HC 30 seconds later when he told me I was cheating to help the other team and hope they paid me good lol. 

[blue23ll]

2 hours ago, KCKUMP said:

I had this exact play 4 years ago. 1 out bases loaded HT catcher drops third strike and parents are screaming RUN!!!! so he takes off to first. Runner at first takes off because he hears everyone yelling run including first base coach but all other runners stay on base, catcher throws to first and first baseman tags first and is holding the ball standing there. Runner who was at first has now stopped and is walking back to first when coach yells tag him. He does and I call the out inning over. VTHC coach comes out I explain it and he goes crazy. Says i should have killed the play protected his runner....no sorry coach my PU said loud enough for me to hear 3 batters out. If I tell him not to run, go back or call time I am now helping you and taking plays away from defense and that’s not my job. Him or his first base coach (who was yelling to run) could understand and after a warning he was gone and HC 30 seconds later when he told me I was cheating to help the other team and hope they paid me good lol. 

I had THIS exact play once on a dropped SECOND strike. What a cluster THAT was!

[jjb]

2 hours ago, KCKUMP said:

I had this exact play 4 years ago. 1 out bases loaded HT catcher drops third strike and parents are screaming RUN!!!! so he takes off to first. Runner at first takes off because he hears everyone yelling run including first base coach but all other runners stay on base, catcher throws to first and first baseman tags first and is holding the ball standing there. Runner who was at first has now stopped and is walking back to first when coach yells tag him. He does and I call the out inning over. VTHC coach comes out I explain it and he goes crazy. Says i should have killed the play protected his runner....no sorry coach my PU said loud enough for me to hear 3 batters out. If I tell him not to run, go back or call time I am now helping you and taking plays away from defense and that’s not my job. Him or his first base coach (who was yelling to run) could understand and after a warning he was gone and HC 30 seconds later when he told me I was cheating to help the other team and hope they paid me good lol. 

What you has was a 1st base coach who didn't know the rule, yelled, "run" when he should have yelled, "On The Bag", and now it's YOUR fault for not protecting R1 from his incompetent staff.....

[ElkOil]

5 hours ago, Guest Dallas Ferg said:

Here is the play: Dropped 3rd strike, bases loaded. Batter attempts to run to first. Batter can not because first base is occupied. Runner on first has his lead off and walks back to first. Catcher throws the ball to first because he thought the batter eligible and first tags the first base runner. Batter is already out, but umpires calls the runner at first out. Is the drop third strike declared a dead ball, first base runner is not out or is the first base runner indeed out?

The situation is what it is by circumstance, not by whatever the umpire or coaches are doing or calls they're making. Sounds like a misapplication of the rules here.

[CJK]

18 hours ago, Guest Dallas Ferg said:

Here is the play: Dropped 3rd strike, bases loaded. Batter attempts to run to first. Batter can not because first base is occupied. Runner on first has his lead off and walks back to first. Catcher throws the ball to first because he thought the batter eligible and first tags the first base runner. Batter is already out, but umpires calls the runner at first out. Is the drop third strike declared a dead ball, first base runner is not out or is the first base runner indeed out?

What if the uncaught third strike had gone to the backstop, and all the runners had moved up?  Would the uncaught third strike be declared a dead ball and the runners sent back?  Of course not.

An uncaught third strike is a live ball, action continues, the batter/runner can run to first base (even though s/he is out), other runners advance/return with liability to be put out, and the catcher can start a snowball fight.  The umpires aren't responsible for controlling or protecting anyone, they're responsible for watching what happens and translating it into outs/runners/runs at the end.

[beerguy55]

In short, there shouldn't be anything controversial about the play...unless the umpire declared it a dead ball....though I'd be really puzzled how a dropped third strike is a dead ball - how are you supposed to get the batter out?

[BT_Blue]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

In short, there shouldn't be anything controversial about the play...unless the umpire declared it a dead ball....though I'd be really puzzled how a dropped third strike is a dead ball - how are you supposed to get the batter out?

I suppose it would fall under the same kind of call as killing the ball on a pitch that hits the batter as he swings? Still strike 3. Still uncaught. But the ball is declared dead, and the batter is out.

[CJK]

29 minutes ago, BT_Blue said:

killing the ball on a pitch that hits the batter

I know you know this, but that ball is dead because it touched the batter, not because it was an uncaught third strike with first base occupied.

[BT_Blue]

9 hours ago, CJK said:

I know you know this, but that ball is dead because it touched the batter, not because it was an uncaught third strike with first base occupied.

Yes, I do. But the effect is still the same.

[ARK1215]

On 5/13/2018 at 3:33 PM, KCKUMP said:

I had this exact play 4 years ago. 1 out bases loaded HT catcher drops third strike and parents are screaming RUN!!!! so he takes off to first. Runner at first takes off because he hears everyone yelling run including first base coach but all other runners stay on base, catcher throws to first and first baseman tags first and is holding the ball standing there. Runner who was at first has now stopped and is walking back to first when coach yells tag him. He does and I call the out inning over. VTHC coach comes out I explain it and he goes crazy. Says i should have killed the play protected his runner....no sorry coach my PU said loud enough for me to hear 3 batters out. If I tell him not to run, go back or call time I am now helping you and taking plays away from defense and that’s not my job. Him or his first base coach (who was yelling to run) could understand and after a warning he was gone and HC 30 seconds later when he told me I was cheating to help the other team and hope they paid me good lol. 

Not too long ago I had a dropped 3rd with no outs and R1 stealing second. Batter runs, catcher throws the ball into right field trying to putout the batter at first base. R1 comes around to score. Batter ends up on second. I call the batter out because first base was occupied at the time of the dropped 3rd. But I let the run count because the play was live. I had the defensive coach on me for letting the run count and the offensive coach on me for calling the batter out. After I explained the play in about 10 seconds they both simultaneously realized they were both upset for nothing.

[Gfoley4]

On 5/14/2018 at 8:15 AM, blue23ll said:

I had THIS exact play once on a dropped SECOND strike. What a cluster THAT was!

Haha, same. I was PU and all I could do was just chuckle a little after all the fans are yelling “ITS DEAD!!”