It's a bird, it's a plane, it's...

[Razzer]

He sent an email this morning...I am buried with work and even my own projects are on hold

[Stan W.]

That's a rough old Girl.............but what a project.........at that price!!. I'd strip her down and start the refurb..............has anyone ever thought of buying some Riddell football shoulder pads to come up with materials/ pieces / parts to help?.......

That would take up my workshop calendar for quite a while.....well done!!

[mbkcoach]

@Stan W. Im a football coach so let me see if I can get on that.

[MadMax]

Gentlemen, the answer isn’t found in buying existing football pads or other CPs for parts. Riddell, All-American, Douglas and Wilson all used common, basic open cell foam inside a nylon skin because that’s what was available – in cost-effective quantity – at the time (some 20 or so years ago). All four companies make / made football pads, so with that “footing the bill”, the CPs took on football-esque styling, but with one key difference: for football, there’s an entire, highly lucrative support industry for maintaining and reconditioning pads (helmets, shoulder pads, etc.). Is there a similar one for baseball? Not so much. Catchers’ CPs were merely and crudely washed, and the umpires... well, who really cares/d about the umpires?

So, to give umpires some ability to clean their CPs themselves, one of the four companies came up with the Velcro tab anchoring system. Whichever did it first escapes me, but Wilson went to the extra step of patenting it. As such, Riddell and All-American were served Cease-&-Desist orders, while Douglas was confined to attaching the pads to the plates in the method they had from the start (when they had the WestVest “blessing”).

Because football was the bigger fish to fry, the other three companies let Wilson have their baseball victory... and protective gear development for us stagnated.

Exclusivity stifles innovation and leads to mediocrity; competition, as we know, inspires innovation.

I’m telling you all this because the place to look isn’t the baseball industry itself. Team Wendy’s was established in honor of the founder’s daughter who suffered a TBI while skiing. Force3 employs Kevlar because of its use in “bulletproof” vests. Schutt developed D3O so as to make their football helmets as protective as possible while staying as lightweight, ventilated, and low-profile as they can achieve.

Perhaps a solution is to approach Riddell and inquire as to if the material used in their football helmets and pads could be used to re-pad a Riddell Power?

If we could get our hands on that material– find the quantative source of it – then the repadding of these classic CPs becomes not only easier, but tremendously more effective. 

[mbkcoach]

Riddell has very thin padding that they use on their top of the line shoulder pads. 

[blue32]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Gentlemen, the answer isn’t found in buying existing football pads or other CPs for parts. Riddell, All-American, Douglas and Wilson all used common, basic open cell foam inside a nylon skin because that’s what was available – in cost-effective quantity – at the time (some 20 or so years ago). All four companies make / made football pads, so with that “footing the bill”, the CPs took on football-esque styling, but with one key difference: for football, there’s an entire, highly lucrative support industry for maintaining and reconditioning pads (helmets, shoulder pads, etc.). Is there a similar one for baseball? Not so much. Catchers’ CPs were merely and crudely washed, and the umpires... well, who really cares/d about the umpires?

So, to give umpires some ability to clean their CPs themselves, one of the four companies came up with the Velcro tab anchoring system. Whichever did it first escapes me, but Wilson went to the extra step of patenting it. As such, Riddell and All-American were served Cease-&-Desist orders, while Douglas was confined to attaching the pads to the plates in the method they had from the start (when they had the WestVest “blessing”).

Because football was the bigger fish to fry, the other three companies let Wilson have their baseball victory... and protective gear development for us stagnated.

Exclusivity stifles innovation and leads to mediocrity; competition, as we know, inspires innovation.

I’m telling you all this because the place to look isn’t the baseball industry itself. Team Wendy’s was established in honor of the founder’s daughter who suffered a TBI while skiing. Force3 employs Kevlar because of its use in “bulletproof” vests. Schutt developed D3O so as to make their football helmets as protective as possible while staying as lightweight, ventilated, and low-profile as they can achieve.

Perhaps a solution is to approach Riddell and inquire as to if the material used in their football helmets and pads could be used to re-pad a Riddell Power?

If we could get our hands on that material– find the quantative source of it – then the repadding of these classic CPs becomes not only easier, but tremendously more effective. 

Max, I did some looking around last night on the D30 product, and what I am finding is that this is not a Schutt exclusive. In fact, it doesn't appear that they developed this product at all. The material was developed by a British company, who provides their material to Schutt, among a host of other companies. The interesting part, is that they provide this stuff in various forms (mesh, solid, lightweight, etc) in FULL SHEETS! The downside is, in order to get your hands on it, you need to be a company looking to apply it to a product that would not compete with their current brand, or partner products. So, what kind of BS story can we concoct to compell them to send us a bunch of this stuff in sheets?  

https://www.d3o.com/contact-us/

 

[blue32]

11 minutes ago, mbkcoach said:

Riddell has very thin padding that they use one their top of the line shoulder pads. 

That is the probably the padding they used on mine when they refurbished it, because what they used is pretty thin, and it's clear to see they used modified padding that was made for shoulder pads, then customized it from there.. I really like it though, have taken a couple good shots, and it works just fine. It's not something you don't feel at all like the Gold, but it doesn't hurt either. It's a great trade off. The only thing about it that I would have liked for them to have done differently, was to have done something to make it more of a "crew neck" than a "button up"  I'll post some pics to explain what I mean....

 

[MadMax]

3 minutes ago, mbkcoach said:

Riddell has very thin padding that they use one their top of the line shoulder pads. 

Right, MBK, that’s what I’m talking about... if Riddell could re-pad a Power CP with that exact top-tier material. Schutt’s use of D3O in the XV is because D3O is used in their helmets and football shoulder pads.

Has any Douglas CP owner asked Douglas to use something other than the original Qualux (sofa cushion foam!) when refurbishing a Douglas CP? Not that I know of... they send it in, it gets refurb’ed, gets some enhancements, and gets sent back. I don’t think that Douglas has been challenged – kindly, but frankly – to consider using something better. We haven’t asked them to!

We keep buying 15+ year old Wilson CPs, don’t we?

In regards to Riddell, they might be more in a pickle, though, because of that C&D order. They might not be able to do the work... but who’s to say we – ourselves – can’t?

[Jbpump15]

@MadMax sending Jim an email now. Will report back.

[ofhs93]

Question...from a guy who hasn't been around here forever. I have one of the pre-lawsuit Champion P200s. (velcro attachments for padding as opposed to rivets) Obviously it looks like almost a carbon copy of the Riddell....can Max and others chime in and let me know what I'm missing in terms of protection when compared to one of the priceless Riddell's? 

[blue32]

1 hour ago, ofhs93 said:

Question...from a guy who hasn't been around here forever. I have one of the pre-lawsuit Champion P200s. (velcro attachments for padding as opposed to rivets) Obviously it looks like almost a carbon copy of the Riddell....can Max and others chime in and let me know what I'm missing in terms of protection when compared to one of the priceless Riddell's? 

I cannot speak from experience with the Champion, as I have never worn one. All I can tell you about the Riddell, is that when they made it, they were able to catch lightning in a bottle that many have tried to duplicate, but none as successfully as the Power. Riddell was somehow able to produce a vest that, out of the box, conformed to your body, with minimal adjustments. It is also incredibly light. I have used a lot of the offerings out there, and I have never had a vest that was as light and comfortable as this one. I (almost) feel like I am not wearing one at all. I have heard people talk about "the cool factor" as being the reason why these are highly sought after. That could be why some do want them, but when you put it on for the first time, that's when you realize what all the hype was about. It's a shame that they can't work out some deal to produce them again. Even if they could, I don't know if they would anyway. The guy I worked with there on mine said they have no interest in baseball anymore, because he said there's no money it. 

[ofhs93]

3 minutes ago, blue32 said:

I cannot speak from experience with the Champion, as I have never worn one. All I can tell you about the Riddell, is that when they made it, they were able to catch lightning in a bottle that many have tried to duplicate, but none as successfully as the Power. Riddell was somehow able to produce a vest that, out of the box, conformed to your body, with minimal adjustments. It is also incredibly light. I have used a lot of the offerings out there, and I have never had a vest that was as light and comfortable as this one. I (almost) feel like I am not wearing one at all. I have heard people talk about "the cool factor" as being the reason why these are highly sought after. That could be why some do want them, but when you put it on for the first time, that's when you realize what all the hype was about. It's a shame that they can't work out some deal to produce them again. Even if they could, I don't know if they would anyway. The guy I worked with there on mine said they have no interest in baseball anymore, because he said there's no money it. 

Ok...I could understand that....the Champion is as close of a direct copy of the pattern design of the Riddell as I could think of. It was decent out of the box for me but once I added an F3 harness it was pretty much perfect. Low profile...light...plenty of protection...not sure how it breaths in comparison to the Riddell.

 

[Jbpump15]

Just now, ofhs93 said:

Ok...I could understand that....the Champion is as close of a direct copy of the pattern design of the Riddell as I could think of. It was decent out of the box for me but once I added an F3 harness it was pretty much perfect. Low profile...light...plenty of protection...not sure how it breaths in comparison to the Riddell.

 

I have a P220 aside from my harness not being right on it. (I need to sack up and order a rayflex) it’s a decent enough protector. I know a lot of minor league guys modify them and love them. The breathability of it is the best I’ve worn (never put on any of Schutt’s Offerings) my only complaint about the champion is I wish the padding were a little more dense, almost like the exposed padding around the rib area, and I wish the gap protection was lower profile. But all in all I’m pretty happy with it.

[Maineac]

6 hours ago, blue32 said:

The only thing about it that I would have liked for them to have done differently, was to have done something to make it more of a "crew neck" than a "button up"

 

Football coach here as well. The padding on the chest is definitely re-purposed from the chest-to-back portion of their shoulder padding, explaining the "button down" look. Good idea, though, could probably be taken on by some of the enterprising souls in this forum. I have a pair of Power shoulder pads kicking around here, maybe I'll give it a go using that pic for inspiration.

4 hours ago, blue32 said:

The guy I worked with there on mine said they have no interest in baseball anymore, because he said there's no money it. 

I got the same sentiments from my Riddell rep a few years ago. But.... With all the talk of CTE and parents not letting their young kids play football as much these days, maybe they'll be willing to re-visit their feelings on baseball if it means making up some of the lost sales. Just a thought.

[blue32]

57 minutes ago, Maineac said:

I got the same sentiments from my Riddell rep a few years ago. But.... With all the talk of CTE and parents not letting their young kids play football as much these days, maybe they'll be willing to re-visit their feelings on baseball if it means making up some of the lost sales. Just a thought.

We can hope.

if you need specific pics of anything, let me know. I just took the pads off to clean it up.

[Jbpump15]

I take bake my structural comments on the champion. Took a foul ball off the “gap cap” this afternoon and after the game took the cp off, quick inspection I saw the scuff pictured. No biggie, the big boys scuff like that too. Then when I was wiping everything down I saw it. The shoulder cap has 4 decent sized cracks in it. While I still stand by my purchase, Champion has definite room for improvement. IMO they need denser/more dense (sorry I’m a lowly machinist and neither sounds correct) plastic. The same goes with the padding, along with protecting the wearer the padding should support the plastic when it flexes not allowing it to flex past it’s breaking point. If @JimKirk or @Scott K see this, please pass this on to champion. Even if the different materials DOUBLE the cost of this unit, it is still a bargain considering the costs of the big Ugly and the Douglas. Edit: working on shrinking the photos on my iPhone.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Jbpump15
Sized photos

[blue32]

1 hour ago, Jbpump15 said:

I take bake my structural comments on the champion. Took a foul ball off the “gap cap” this afternoon and after the game took the cp off, quick inspection I saw the scuff pictured. No biggie, the big boys scuff like that too. Then when I was wiping everything down I saw it. The shoulder cap has 4 decent sized cracks in it. While I still stand by my purchase, Champion has definite room for improvement. IMO they need denser/more dense (sorry I’m a lowly machinist and neither sounds correct) plastic. The same goes with the padding, along with protecting the wearer the padding should support the plastic when it flexes not allowing it to flex past it’s breaking point. If @JimKirk or @Scott K see this, please pass this on to champion. Even if the different materials DOUBLE the cost of this unit, it is still a bargain considering the costs of the big Ugly and the Douglas. Edit: working on shrinking the photos on my iPhone.

Or at least just ask them to use curved, flat  plates. The ball will skim over your shoulder and not take as much of the force of the ball like those champion ones could. 

[wolfe_man]

8 hours ago, blue32 said:

Or at least just ask them to use curved, flat  plates. The ball will skim over your shoulder and not take as much of the force of the ball like those champion ones could. 

Yes, I wish they would use the shoulder gap coverage plates from the Gold.  Flat plates, not humps, spread the energy out better.

[MadMax]

12 hours ago, blue32 said:

I cannot speak from experience with the Champion, as I have never worn one. All I can tell you about the Riddell, is that when they made it, they were able to catch lightning in a bottle that many have tried to duplicate, but none as successfully as the Power. Riddell was somehow able to produce a vest that, out of the box, conformed to your body, with minimal adjustments. It is also incredibly light. I have used a lot of the offerings out there, and I have never had a vest that was as light and comfortable as this one. I (almost) feel like I am not wearing one at all. I have heard people talk about "the cool factor" as being the reason why these are highly sought after. That could be why some do want them, but when you put it on for the first time, that's when you realize what all the hype was about. It's a shame that they can't work out some deal to produce them again. Even if they could, I don't know if they would anyway. The guy I worked with there on mine said they have no interest in baseball anymore, because he said there's no money it. 

And this is the truly tragic, crying shame. But when you have the Big League Guys expect the gear to be supplied for free, and the inability to advertise or brand your products, combined with a patent court C&D order preventing you from even revising your model, there is very little motivation – let alone money – in it to try and carry on.

The “lightning in a bottle” observation is true – Riddell really hit upon the ideal combination of elements. Yeah, the harness was paltry, but the clips were better than the T-hooks, and yeah, the original lacked ailettes (gap protectors), but it really conformed to your body and didn’t make you look like a stiff, hulking brute. I rave about my Schutt, but even I have to give “mad props” to Riddell.

[ofhs93]

13 hours ago, blue32 said:

Or at least just ask them to use curved, flat  plates. The ball will skim over your shoulder and not take as much of the force of the ball like those champion ones could. 

Ill have to take a closer look at mine later on...I've taken a few shoulder shots lately...not super solid ones though.

[mbkcoach]

@Jdc03270 have u worn it yet? Did u clean it up? Give us update. 

[Maineac]

23 hours ago, blue32 said:

We can hope.

if you need specific pics of anything, let me know. I just took the pads off to clean it up.

Looks like I have the right company, right padding, wrong style of shoulder pads to make this work. Unless I want a big gap right over my heart. Too bad.

[Jdc03270]

[mention=3836]Jdc03270[/mention] have u worn it yet? Did u clean it up? Give us update. 

Fits like a glove. I thought my Douglas VW fit well but this thing fits 10x better.


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[Jdc03270]

Now here's the question. Match existing padding? Or go black? Hmmmmm...


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[sd181612]

23 hours ago, Jdc03270 said:

Now here's the question. Match existing padding? Or go black? Hmmmmm...


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Black!!! Let me show you how clean, classy, and nice it looks.