Set position

[roothog66]

I have a question concerning the set position. It's high school, so FED rule set. I've attached a video of my pitcher. He pitches exclusively from the stretch. IN the video, no one is on base, so you'll just have to imagine a pause before the pitch since he goes quick here. The issue is that there was a stink during our last game. The opposing coach is an ex-MILB umpire who insisted that his "double set" was a balk. Now, under OBR rules, I don't disagree. However, under FED, the set position is defined as, in part, "with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin." This, of course, is not in the OBR set. My argument would be that his first initial movement and stop is with his glove well above the chin, so he is not yet in the set position until the second pause, where he brings the glove down. 

So far, every umpire has held it not to be a balk. However, their explanation to the opposing coaches has more often than not been that he hasn't paused yet and is still moving. I don't think he actually is and I don't think their reasoning is right. I tend to believe that it's not a balk because, until his glove is below the chin, he's not in the set position. Thoughts?

 

[Cav]

If F1 came to a complete and discernable stop with his hands joined completely above his chin, the only thing he could legally do is step off.  If he began his motion to pitch from that position, it is a balk.  If he lowered his joined hands below his chin and came to another complete stop, that is a balk.

Save yourself some headaches and teach him to join hands and come to a complete and discernable stop below his chin until he makes money doing otherwise.  

[Jimurray]

14 minutes ago, roothog66 said:

I have a question concerning the set position. It's high school, so FED rule set. I've attached a video of my pitcher. He pitches exclusively from the stretch. IN the video, no one is on base, so you'll just have to imagine a pause before the pitch since he goes quick here. The issue is that there was a stink during our last game. The opposing coach is an ex-MILB umpire who insisted that his "double set" was a balk. Now, under OBR rules, I don't disagree. However, under FED, the set position is defined as, in part, "with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin." This, of course, is not in the OBR set. My argument would be that his first initial movement and stop is with his glove well above the chin, so he is not yet in the set position until the second pause, where he brings the glove down. 

So far, every umpire has held it not to be a balk. However, their explanation to the opposing coaches has more often than not been that he hasn't paused yet and is still moving. I don't think he actually is and I don't think their reasoning is right. I tend to believe that it's not a balk because, until his glove is below the chin, he's not in the set position. Thoughts?

 

The stop at the chin is a valid stop. I have him starting his motion after that. 

[noumpere]

1) If any part of the glove is "at or below the chin" that's a legal set -- and that's what it looks like to me.  The pause (if there was one) later would be illegal.

2) If the glove is entirely above the chin, then it's also illegal -- for not going to the set in one motion.

[roothog66]

2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The stop at the chin is a valid stop. I have him starting his motion after that. 

I'm sorry. Just trying to clarify. It's your interpretation that the motion after he stops at the chin is his "pause" from the stretch and that would make the second pause a "balk?" 

[roothog66]

1 minute ago, noumpere said:

1) If any part of the glove is "at or below the chin" that's a legal set -- and that's what it looks like to me.  The pause (if there was one) later would be illegal.

2) If the glove is entirely above the chin, then it's also illegal -- for not going to the set in one motion.

OK. I never thought of it as "any part of the glove below the chin" but, rather that if any part of the glove were NOT below the chin, it would not be a set position. However, the rules leave that open. I do, however buy the second argument completely due to the wording, "Natural preliminary
motions such as only one stretch may be made." 

So far, it hasn't been called a balk, but we may need to prepare for when it is. Let me ask this. If he were to bring that glove up to his chin in the first pause, but eliminate pausing the hands and immediately, and slowly, bring the glove down to the waist while maintaining the first pause with the lower body, would you think the re positioning into the second "set" to be legal?

[maven]

3 minutes ago, roothog66 said:

Let me ask this. If he were to bring that glove up to his chin in the first pause, but eliminate pausing the hands and immediately, and slowly, bring the glove down to the waist while maintaining the first pause with the lower body, would you think the re positioning into the second "set" to be legal?

A "second set" including anything the umpire properly judges to satisfy that description is illegal because it violates the requirement to come set in 1 continuous motion.

If something is moving, then he's not set yet. We see this in pitchers who shrug, wiggle, move their feet, etc. while coming set, even if their hands stop somewhere.

[roothog66]

4 minutes ago, Cav said:

If F1 came to a complete and discernable stop with his hands joined completely above his chin, the only thing he could legally do is step off.  If he began his motion to pitch from that position, it is a balk.  If he lowered his joined hands below his chin and came to another complete stop, that is a balk.

Save yourself some headaches and teach him to join hands and come to a complete and discernable stop below his chin until he makes money doing otherwise.  

Yeah, I get that. He's been doing it for four years and never gotten a balk call, though I agree it's a balk. Not sure about changing it this late since, yeah, he might only have two more appearances before he is "making money doing it otherwise." I would want him to be able to adjust once it is called a balk. Personally, I'm surprised that hasn't happened yet.

[roothog66]

1 minute ago, maven said:

A "second set" including anything the umpire properly judges to satisfy that description is illegal because it violates the requirement to come set in 1 continuous motion.

If something is moving, then he's not set yet. We see this in pitchers who shrug, wiggle, move their feet, etc. while coming set, even if their hands stop somewhere.

Yeah, and that's always been every umps explanation - that he's still moving - though I've never thought he was. I appreciate the advice. He only has a couple more high school starts, but want to prepare him to adjust if necessary.

[Jimurray]

16 minutes ago, roothog66 said:

I'm sorry. Just trying to clarify. It's your interpretation that the motion after he stops at the chin is his "pause" from the stretch and that would make the second pause a "balk?" 

I have legs moving after the first stop so the second stop would not be a balk. It would be part of his delivery to the plate. 

[Tborze]

Yes, the stop/pause at his chin is his stop, which is illegal in FED. After he brings his hands together he must pitch in one continuous motion, which he does not!  He takes another step as he brings his hands down, which you seem to think the second set is a valid pause, and it is not. Only one stretch may be made. Once his hands are together and he stops he is set. He can pitch, step off or feint or throw to a base. 

It looks like he is winding up from the set position, which is also illegal.  Hybrid  

If I were you coach, I would be correcting this before you lose runs over it

 

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, Tborze said:

Yes, the stop/pause at his chin is his stop, which is illegal in FED. After he brings his hands together he must pitch in one continuous motion, which he does not!  He takes another step as he brings his hands down, which you seem to think the second set is a valid pause, and it is not. Only one stretch may be made. Once his hands are together and he stops he is set. He can pitch, step off or feint or throw to a base. 

It looks like he is winding up from the set position, which is also illegal.  Hybrid  

If I were you coach, I would be correcting this before you lose runs over it

 

Isn't part of his glove at the chin when he comes set? 

[roothog66]

8 minutes ago, Tborze said:

Yes, the stop/pause at his chin is his stop, which is illegal in FED. After he brings his hands together he must pitch in one continuous motion, which he does not!  He takes another step as he brings his hands down, which you seem to think the second set is a valid pause, and it is not. Only one stretch may be made. Once his hands are together and he stops he is set. He can pitch, step off or feint or throw to a base. 

It looks like he is winding up from the set position, which is also illegal.  Hybrid  

If I were you coach, I would be correcting this before you lose runs over it

 

Like I said, though, he's been doing it for four years. At least in this state, no one has bothered enforcing the whole "hybrid" thing, regardless of the POE. I do plan to work on having him keep motion through the first pause during a BP today, just in case the time comes that it is called a balk (surprised it hasn't happened yet). As to losing runs, it hasn't been a problem yet because he's only allowed one runner to reach third base in 21.2 ip this year. He's throwing a season-long no-hitter so far this year. If he keeps that up, he can afford one balk, I imagine. lol.

[noumpere]

28 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I have legs moving after the first stop so the second stop would not be a balk. It would be part of his delivery to the plate. 

But, he's also stepping with the free foot as part of this move to the "hands at the chest / waist" -- and that's not allowed even if this is all part of a motion to pitch.

[noumpere]

Just now, roothog66 said:

 He's throwing a season-long no-hitter so far this year. If he keeps that up, he can afford one balk, I imagine. lol.

99% of the opposing coach's complaints are based on this fact, and not the pitcher's specific movements.

[Tborze]

8 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Isn't part of his glove at the chin when he comes set? 

The rule states "and his glove at or below his chin", not above. I posted a question on the reasoning of this rule which others, as well as myself, seems to think it's just one of those unedited FED rules. 

I have a question for you. If you feel he is set at the chin, wouldn't it be a balk/illegal pitch once he lifts his non pivot foot and puts it back down before delivering?  

[Tborze]

9 minutes ago, roothog66 said:

Like I said, though, he's been doing it for four years. At least in this state, no one has bothered enforcing the whole "hybrid" thing, regardless of the POE. I do plan to work on having him keep motion through the first pause during a BP today, just in case the time comes that it is called a balk (surprised it hasn't happened yet). As to losing runs, it hasn't been a problem yet because he's only allowed one runner to reach third base in 21.2 ip this year. He's throwing a season-long no-hitter so far this year. If he keeps that up, he can afford one balk, I imagine. lol.

Sry, I was responding as others were chiming in. I'm a slow typer

 

[Jimurray]

11 minutes ago, noumpere said:

But, he's also stepping with the free foot as part of this move to the "hands at the chest / waist" -- and that's not allowed even if this is all part of a motion to pitch.

I don't know what that violates in the set position rule but possibly we infer no raising of the foot because one step backward and forward is allowed in the windup rule. But I think I have seen pro pitchers toe tap during a set delivery.

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, Tborze said:

The rule states "and his glove at or below his chin", not above. I posted a question on the reasoning of this rule which others, as well as myself, seems to think it's just one of those unedited FED rules. 

I have a question for you. If you feel he is set at the chin, wouldn't it be a balk/illegal pitch once he lifts his non pivot foot and puts it back down before delivering?  

I have him raising his foot during the delivery which started after the stop at the chin. But @noumpere has a point.

[Senor Azul]

2018 NFHS Case Book play 6.1.3 Situation O:  With R3 and R1, F1 comes to a complete stop with his glove partially above his chin. Is this legal?  RULING:  This is legal.