Jump to content

Base Award


zoops
Umpire-Empire locks topics which have not been active in the last year. The thread you are viewing hasn't been active in 2166 days so you will not be able to post. We do recommend you starting a new topic to find out what's new in the world of umpiring.

Recommended Posts

Was doing a HS game a couple days where one of the teams was very bad, which might help you envision this play:  R3, pitch in the dirt kicks off the catcher to the left about 15 feet.  The pitch was ball 4 but the batter only took a couple steps toward first and then watched R3 run home as the pitcher covered home plate.  R3 scores easily but the catcher makes an attempt to throw the ball to the plate anyway and throws over the pitcher, and the ball almost rolls into the dugout.  If the ball had gone into the dugout, what would be the proper base award?  Would this be considered the first play from an infielder (2 bases/time of pitch)?  I'm assuming the the BR is not considered to have acquired 1B until he touches it (much like if ball 4 goes into the dugout after kicking off the catcher - the award is only first base) and so his award would be second base regardless if you go 2 from the time of pitch or time of throw, but it was an odd play so I just wanted to throw it out there.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting question. I follow your logic. 2 bases TOP make sense, but something's telling me maybe BR gets 3B....TOT.  At the time of throw BR was already awarded 1B without liability to be put out, so he gets 2 from there? I don't recall ever reading such a case play, or discussing such a play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, zoops said:

If the ball had gone into the dugout, what would be the proper base award?  Would this be considered the first play from an infielder (2 bases/time of pitch)?

What was the status of the ball? The defense gets an exception to the TOT award when they are fielding a batted ball and make the first throw by an infielder.

Here's the FED version: "In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch." (8-3-5)

Is that what we have here?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, maven said:

What was the status of the ball? The defense gets an exception to the TOT award when they are fielding a batted ball and make the first throw by an infielder.

Here's the FED version: "In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch." (8-3-5)

Is that what we have here?

Not sure if that's a rhetorical question, but no, it was not a batted ball of course.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, zoops said:

Not sure if that's a rhetorical question, but no, it was not a batted ball of course.  

Maven is trying to "teach you to fish." Not only has he handed you a rod and reel, and baited the hook, he's placed the hook in the fish's mouth.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, but only one has taken the risk of opining about where BR ends up. The inexperienced fisherman's gonna need to dig for his bait. 

5.06(a)(4)(G) comments The position of the batter-runner at the time the wild throw left the thrower’s hand is the key in deciding the award of bases. If the batter-runner has not reached first base, the award is two bases at the time the pitch

Interesting that there is an exception to the TOP award when F2 throws to DBT trying to retire R3 scoring (nearly the OP), but that exception only applies when B is not a BR.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok,I have bait on my hook, and I'm not catching anything.

Are we saying the BR gets 3B IF AND ONLY IF he has touched 1B, even though it was an award? Otherwise just 2B?

What if we throw in an R1 into the equation?

R3, R1, Ball 4 is thrown skips away from F2 up the line. F2 throws home to retire an advancing R3 and throws into DBT. At the TOT,R1 had reached 2B and BR had NOT reached 1B. Score R1 and put BR at 2B?

Anyone have any cites on such a play?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Ok,I have bait on my hook, and I'm not catching anything.

Are we saying the BR gets 3B IF AND ONLY IF he has touched 1B, even though it was an award? Otherwise just 2B?

What if we throw in an R1 into the equation?

R3, R1, Ball 4 is thrown skips away from F2 up the line. F2 throws home to retire an advancing R3 and throws into DBT. At the TOT,R1 had reached 2B and BR had NOT reached 1B. Score R1 and put BR at 2B?

Anyone have any cites on such a play?

If I had finished the second sentence of the 5.06(a)(4)(G) comment, it might have answered your question. 

If the batter-runner has not reached first base, the award is two bases at the time the pitch was made for all runners.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting...So even though it's a base award due to the BB,the runners get 2 bases TOT. SO in my above example, score R1, BR to 2B. Strange play I never really thought about before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Richvee said:

Interesting...So even though it's a base award due to the BB,the runners get 2 bases TOT. SO in my above example, score R1, BR to 2B. Strange play I never really thought about before.

No, I don't think so. That 6.05 comment specifically says that all runners get 2 bases TOP when B is a BR. So in your R1 scenario, R1 only gets 3B (2 bases TOP).  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two bases TOT, regardless of  whether BR has advanced:

 

from JEA:

Runner on second...3-2 count on the batter. "Ball four" eludes the catcher and settles several feet away. The runner
is advancing to third as the batter heads to first. In his haste to field the ball...the catcher accidently kicks it into the
dugout. Where do you place the runners?
RULING: A pitch that remains on the playing field and is subsequently kicked into the dugout entitles all runners
two bases from time of pitch. Score a run and place the batter at second. If the catcher had established secure
possession and then caused the ball to go out of play, the award (2 bases) would have been based on the runner's
position at the time the ball was last touched.

 

From J/R:

It is a time-of-pitch award if a batted ball is fielded by an infielder whose first play is overthrown .... If the award is not TOP then it is time-of-throw (TOT),

6– First play by an infielder, but not a batted ball: R2, ball four to the batter. The pitch
bounces wildly and the catcher is uncertain of its whereabouts. When the ball is
retrieved, R2 is trying for home. The catcher's throw to the plate deflects off the
pitcher and rolls into a dugout: batter-runner gets two bases from TOT; in this case,
awarded third base.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, ricka56 said:

If I had finished the second sentence of the 5.06(a)(4)(G) comment, it might have answered your question. 

If the batter-runner has not reached first base, the award is two bases at the time the pitch was made for all runners.

The rule you keep quoting from is articulating the TOT exception for a batted ball. It extends TOP to all runners, no matter where they were at TOT. IOW, it's saying: IF the award is TOP for the BR, then it's TOP for all runners.

But the award in the OP is not TOP, because it's not a batted ball. So no part of the many clauses of the TOT exception applies, and the award is TOT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

6– First play by an infielder, but not a batted ball: R2, ball four to the batter. The pitch
bounces wildly and the catcher is uncertain of its whereabouts. When the ball is
retrieved, R2 is trying for home. The catcher's throw to the plate deflects off the
pitcher and rolls into a dugout: batter-runner gets two bases from TOT; in this case,
awarded third base.

Ok. I've got this part..TOT.  But in the above example, no mention of where BR was TOT

To clarify, We are not assuming BR "occupies" 1B right away due to the award. When the throw is made, he must physically be on or past 1B to be awarded 3B . Correct?   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Ok. I've got this part..TOT.  But in the above example, no mention of where BR was TOT

To clarify, We are not assuming BR "occupies" 1B right away due to the award. When the throw is made, he must physically be on or past 1B to be awarded 3B . Correct?   

Correct.

 

If R2 can make it home, even a slow BR can make it to first -- but you are correct that it's not specifically stated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, maven said:

...The rule you keep quoting from is articulating the TOT exception for a batted ball. 

Actually the rule is 5.06(b)(4)(G) Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, (formerly pitched or batted is not relevant)... But more interesting is that that comment pertained to a scenario where a throw from the outfield goes out of play. There isn't any TOT exception for a throw from the outfield that I am aware of, but then there is the comment statement, If the batter-runner has not reached first base, the award is two bases at the time the pitch was made for all runners. So there is some TOP award exception, other than first play by an infielder, where the position of BR (in relation to 1B) is relevant/applicable. This I don't remember/understand. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...