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Guest Jon

Rule 4.09

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Guest Jon

We had a situation in a Little League game. In the last half of the 6th inning (last inning) there were 2 outs with bases loaded, the pitcher walked the next batter but the runner on first failed to advance to second and ran off the field. The winning run stepped on home plate but the umpire called the runner at second out for failing to touch second base. The run should not count according to rule 4.09 correct?

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3 minutes ago, Guest Jon said:

We had a situation in a Little League game. In the last half of the 6th inning (last inning) there were 2 outs with bases loaded, the pitcher walked the next batter but the runner on first failed to advance to second and ran off the field. The winning run stepped on home plate but the umpire called the runner at second out for failing to touch second base. The run should not count according to rule 4.09 correct?

That's the wrong question. The right question would be why the umpire incorrectly called the runner out.

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run counts by newer rule updates:

 

(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without liability of being put out, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

Rule 5.08(b) Comment (Rule 4.09(b) Comment): An exception will be if fans rush onto the field and physically prevent the runner from touching home plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases, the umpires shall award the runner the base because of the obstruction by the fans.

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the offending player shall be called out.

Rule 5.08 Comment (Rule 4.09 Comment):

APPROVED RULING: No run shall score during a play in which the third out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base. Example: One out, Jones on second, Smith on first. The batter, Brown, hits safely. Jones scores. Smith is out on the throw to the plate. Two outs. But Brown missed first base. The ball is thrown to first, an appeal is made, and Brown is out. Three outs. Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batter-runner before he touched first base, Jones’ run does not count.

APPROVED RULING: Following runners are not affected by an act of a preceding runner unless two are out.

EXAMPLE: One out, Jones on second, Smith on first, and batter, Brown, hits home run inside the park. Jones fails to touch third on his way to the plate. Smith and Brown score. The defense holds the ball on third, appeals to umpire, and Jones is out. Smith’s and Brown’s runs count.

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Just now, Guest Jon said:

If the runner never advanced or touched second base, isn't it an out?

 

not when the walk causes the winning run to be plated.

 

this is a newer rule change (in the last year or two)

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2 minutes ago, Guest Jon said:

If the runner never advanced or touched second base, isn't it an out?

 

 

2 minutes ago, stkjock said:

(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without liability of being put out, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

 

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1 minute ago, stkjock said:

this is a newer rule change (in the last year or two)

It's been the OBR rule for as long as I can remember.  Only BR and R3 need advance.

 

(The "change" might be the clarification that this only applies on "awards" sucha as a walk and not on balls in play.

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1 minute ago, noumpere said:

It's been the OBR rule for as long as I can remember.  Only BR and R3 need advance.

 

(The "change" might be the clarification that this only applies on "awards" sucha as a walk and not on balls in play.

gotcha, maybe that's what is sticking in my memory as newer.

 

Thank you for the clarification. 

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Guest Carl

The Little League RIM helps clarify the runners' obligations regarding this play.  From the 2017 RIM, pg. 34, see note (2) for our OP:

When the winning run is forced in, it is important for the umpire to be aware of each runner’s legal obligation, including the batter-runner.

(1) If the winning run is forced in as the result of a batted ball, all runners including the batter-runner are obligated to touch their next bases. The BR must advance to and touch 1st base, and any other runner forced must advance to and touch his/her next base. If any such forced runner fails to do so, a force out appeal play is in order; and if it is sustained for the third out, no run shall count since the third out was, in effect, a force out. If this appeal force out is not the third out, the runner shall be declared out but the winning run scores.

(2) If the winning run is forced in as the result of an award (e.g. base on balls, hit batsman, catcher interference), the runner from third is required to advance to and touch home and the batter-runner is required to advance to and touch first base before the game is over. The other runners on base are not required to touch their next bases when the winning run is forced in as the result of an award.

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2 hours ago, Guest Jon said:

If the runner never advanced or touched second base, isn't it an out?

 

Even in a situation where he would be required to touch second - eg. a hit rather than a walk - the defense would be required to do something - that is, make a play at second base in the form of a force play/appeal - rather than the umpire just calling him out for abandonment.

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1 hour ago, Guest Carl said:

The Little League RIM helps clarify the runners' obligations regarding this play.  From the 2017 RIM, pg. 34, see note (2) for our OP:

When the winning run is forced in, it is important for the umpire to be aware of each runner’s legal obligation, including the batter-runner.

(1) If the winning run is forced in as the result of a batted ball, all runners including the batter-runner are obligated to touch their next bases. The BR must advance to and touch 1st base, and any other runner forced must advance to and touch his/her next base. If any such forced runner fails to do so, a force out appeal play is in order; and if it is sustained for the third out, no run shall count since the third out was, in effect, a force out. If this appeal force out is not the third out, the runner shall be declared out but the winning run scores.

(2) If the winning run is forced in as the result of an award (e.g. base on balls, hit batsman, catcher interference), the runner from third is required to advance to and touch home and the batter-runner is required to advance to and touch first base before the game is over. The other runners on base are not required to touch their next bases when the winning run is forced in as the result of an award.

LL and NCAA do not clarify as OBR does now what the umpire should do if the batter “refuses” to go to 1B, infering a request by the umpire to advance. I would make the request in LL, OBR and NCAA. 

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