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Scotty_Ump

How many batters are allowed to warm up between innings?

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I was PU during U12 tournament played under FED rules. In middle of game, HC asks me to "watch the other team" between innings because they had "too many batters" in front of their bench area between innings swinging bats while his pitcher was throwing warm-up pitches. I told him I'd "keep an eye on it" but the game ended early (mercy rule) and it never came up again.

Post-game I looked up FED rules and all I found re: this situation is 3-3-3: "Players loosening up to bat shall remain in the area of their team's on-deck circle while the pitcher is warming up."

Does anyone know if FED (or other rule sets) limits the amount of players who can warm up between innings?

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Not sure of rule, but I will only allow 2 on deck between innings. I work JC and HS ball.

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I would apply the reasoning of the following case book play--

2018 NFHS Case Book play 3.3.1 Situation BBB (formerly WW):  Between innings, the non-playing players of Team A run in foul territory toward the outfield fence to stay loose. The coach of Team B protests that this is not legal and is delaying the contest. RULING:  The coach of Team B is incorrect. It is legal provided this activity does not delay the start of the next half-inning.

 

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1 hour ago, umpstu said:

Not sure of rule, but I will only allow 2 on deck between innings. I work JC and HS ball.

How can you enforce a rule you're not even sure exists?

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An old version of BRD I have says that only one is allowed.  That's also true in NCAA and OBR -- but I thought, when I worked NCAA, that between innings both the "batter" (even if he wasn't in the box yet) and the "next batter" were allowed.

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For FED, I thought there was a case play but doesn't appear to be in the current book. However, two warming up can be derived from the requirements of 3-3-1(i):

ART. 1 . . . A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:

i. be outside the designated dugout (bench) or bullpen area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach's box or one of the nine players on defense;

 

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45 minutes ago, scrounge said:

For FED, I thought there was a case play but doesn't appear to be in the current book. However, two warming up can be derived from the requirements of 3-3-1(i):

ART. 1 . . . A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:

i. be outside the designated dugout (bench) or bullpen area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach's box or one of the nine players on defense;

 

Don't be OOO about it. That prohibition would prevent a bathroom trip or even being on the way to the bullpen.  Kinda precludes a batboy also. Or the trainer attending an injury. Or someone bringing water to an umpire.

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4 hours ago, Scotty_Ump said:

I was PU during U12 tournament played under FED rules. In middle of game, HC asks me to "watch the other team" between innings because they had "too many batters" in front of their bench area between innings swinging bats while his pitcher was throwing warm-up pitches. I told him I'd "keep an eye on it" but the game ended early (mercy rule) and it never came up again.

Post-game I looked up FED rules and all I found re: this situation is 3-3-3: "Players loosening up to bat shall remain in the area of their team's on-deck circle while the pitcher is warming up."

Does anyone know if FED (or other rule sets) limits the amount of players who can warm up between innings?

Was the coach used to Little League?  Little League only allows one batter out between innings.  That could be where he got the idea, in any event.

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4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Don't be OOO about it. That prohibition would prevent a bathroom trip or even being on the way to the bullpen.  Kinda precludes a batboy also. Or the trainer attending an injury. Or someone bringing water to an umpire.

Well, duh, no one's talking about that, we're talking about having seven or something people out there swinging bats. 

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15 minutes ago, scrounge said:

Well, duh, no one's talking about that, we're talking about having seven or something people out there swinging bats. 

Well duh - the rule says what it says and my examples all violate it.   You picking which parts to enforce? 

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8 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Well duh - the rule says what it says and my examples all violate it.   You picking which parts to enforce? 

perfect example of using a rule to solve a problem and not create one. 6, 7 guys outside the dugout swinging bats is not only illegal it's a safety issue. Not allowing a player that needs to use the port-o-john to leave the dugout is NOT the INTENT  of the rule. 

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6 hours ago, scrounge said:

I thought there was a case play but doesn't appear to be in the current book.

I think I remember seeing something in FED about multiple guys swinging bats...maybe an interp? 

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18 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Well duh - the rule says what it says and my examples all violate it.   You picking which parts to enforce? 

You were refuting an argument nobody made with an out of context, overly pedantic tangent. If you want to double down on that by being "What other rules are you ignoring?" Guy, that's your choice but I'm not playing that silly game.

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1 hour ago, scrounge said:

You were refuting an argument nobody made with an out of context, overly pedantic tangent. If you want to double down on that by being "What other rules are you ignoring?" Guy, that's your choice but I'm not playing that silly game.

No. In my post above I said "Don't be OOO about it." and listed examples of why.  I guess saying don't be OOO is wrong then. 

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1 hour ago, Richvee said:

perfect example of using a rule to solve a problem and not create one. 6, 7 guys outside the dugout swinging bats is not only illegal it's a safety issue. Not allowing a player that needs to use the port-o-john to leave the dugout is NOT the INTENT  of the rule. 

Which is why I said "don't be OOO about it."

 

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9 hours ago, Tborze said:

How can you enforce a rule you're not even sure exists?

It's a safety thing.  Be great to have ten kids swinging a bat and one get his head busted open because a rule may or may not exist.  I actually make a hs player or student put on a batting helmet if he's going to run down a foul ball. I will stop a game to make sure the kid warming a pitcher up on the field or in the bullpen has a mask on if he's going to squat down.  I think safety is a good thing. In my 25 years as an umpire I've had coaches argue a lot of things, but they never, ever argue about the kid's safety.

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14 hours ago, stevis said:

Was the coach used to Little League?  Little League only allows one batter out between innings.  That could be where he got the idea, in any event.

That could be the case. I remember the other team would have as many as 3 players swinging bats between innings - first-up, on-deck batter, and third batter due up - and I didn't see it as unusual. Funny thing is that coach didn't explicitly tell me how many batters he thought were allowed. So the next inning, I watched how many of his batters were warming up and - surprise - there were 3.

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19 hours ago, scrounge said:

For FED, I thought there was a case play but doesn't appear to be in the current book. However, two warming up can be derived from the requirements of 3-3-1(i):

ART. 1 . . . A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:

i. be outside the designated dugout (bench) or bullpen area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach's box or one of the nine players on defense;

 

This rule pertains to live ball situations. If not, there would be no bullpen inside the fence and no need for a protector!  

Also we would be issuing warnings every half inning when the Coach huddles his team up to get ready to hit while the D is warming up!

See CB 3.3.1 OOO, SRY AAA and BBB as Senor Azul pointed out. 

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2 hours ago, Scotty_Ump said:

 So the next inning, I watched how many of his batters were warming up and - surprise - there were 3.

Funny how this works...

Do as I say, not as I do... right?

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20 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

Funny how this works...

Do as I say, not as I do... right?

or he was reacting to the fact that it was being allowed.

 

seen it a few times in my coaching career where a coach was used to a particular rule set where something was not allowed, comes to realize that there's a difference and adjusts.

 

in fact the OPs situation happened to me with an opposing team, PU told opposing HC to get his players in the dugout but for the on deck batter and first batter up.  Had he not said it, I would have let my first 3 batters out to swing along the baseline as F1 warmed up.

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32 minutes ago, Tborze said:

This rule pertains to live ball situations. If not, there would be no bullpen inside the fence and no need for a protector!  

Also we would be issuing warnings every half inning when the Coach huddles his team up to get ready to hit while the D is warming up!

See CB 3.3.1 OOO, SRY AAA and BBB as Senor Azul pointed out. 

I do not agree with that. That's an authorized purpose. Also, numerous cases talk about dead ball activity and what would be authorized (transiting between bullpen, jogging between innings, etc). If the rule didn't apply at all to dead ball situations, it would be pointless to have specific examples of allowed activity. Plus, the rule explicitly says they can be in the bullpen area. 

Of course no one's talking about quickly exiting to go to the bathroom or other OOO/trivial things. But players out swinging bats, dead ball or live ball? Only 2 in my book. Too many cases of injuries when it's a circus out there (including deaths - not going to happen on my conscience).
 

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12 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Which is why I said "don't be OOO about it."

 

Got it. i thought you meant using the rule to keep 6 kids from swinging bats in front of the dugout was being an "OOO"

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37 minutes ago, Tborze said:

This rule pertains to live ball situations. If not, there would be no bullpen inside the fence and no need for a protector!  

 

 

3.3.1 SITUATION F:

During live playing action Team A sends two players out to the bullpen down the left field line to warm up.

RULING: Legal, warming up a pitcher is an authorized reason for players to be outside their dugouts while play is live.

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56 minutes ago, Tborze said:

Also we would be issuing warnings every half inning when the Coach huddles his team up to get ready to hit while the D is warming up!

There's obvious exceptions to 3-3-1i as the case book points out here.

3.3.1 SITUATION AAA:

A player from Team A (who has been previously warned) hits a 3-run home run out of the field of play and wins the game by one run. The teammates of Team A rush out of the dugout and excitedly cheer for their teammate. The coach from Team B wants the players' violation of the rule to be the second violation and have the game forfeited to Team B because Team A failed to comply with the previous warning.

RULING: Incorrect interpretation. By rule, no one should be out of the dugout/bench area or bullpen if not a batter, runner, ondeck batter, in the coach's box or one of the nine players on defense during a live ball. The home run is an exciting element in the game of baseball. Since the ball is dead, the teammates of the batter are permitted to be out of the dugout to celebrate. However, precautions should be taken not to interfere with the umpire's ability to see the batter touch all the bases. In fact, the players should be behind the umpire until the runner scores.

 

I would include such things as a head coach talking with his team outside the dugout at the end of the inning as another exception. 

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My perspective is I am not willing to spend a season (or two) of game fee earnings just so 3 or 4 batters can stand on deck.  There are two many ambulance chasing lawyers in a constant barage of TV & radio advertising making it too easy for parents to call before they even get to the hospital.  I was always taught that the only one's allowed on-deck swinging bats when warm-ups are occurring is the batter & the on-deck batter.  This is supported in the rules as mentioned earlier.  Why would anyone want to incur the liability when a kid gets knocked out because he is the 4th-5th or 6th kid out on deck?  I work too hard for my game fees to lose in a judgement.  If you want the liability then let more than two out there.    Another issue is allowing batters to go to the opponent's on-deck warm-up area just because they are right or left handed & want to warm up on the side they will be batting.  This is prohibited as well.

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